First boat that will teach me what I need to know...

[intervivos]

Long term goal is to work my way from inland waters daysailers to blue water cruising. Giving myself about 10 years to do this. First boat will spend most of her time on Lake Champlain, possibly some time on the great lakes. Given my time frame I have a dilemma and would like insight from folks.

Looking at either a 25 foot boat that I can trailer, or a 30 foot boat that will stay at a marina. Most 30 foot boats have a lot of comforts and systems that I don't think I need in my first boat. To give you an example, a Catalina 25 wing keel with a outboard, composting toilet, and a mast I can step myself is very appealing right now. Would keep it at a marina during the season, then move it home to work on it over the winter.

Moving up to a 30 foot boat means inboard diesel, plumbing, electrical systems that I will eventually need to know how to use/maintain/fix, in addition to the added marina costs of the larger boat. Learning the systems now would mean I would get some of this out of the way earlier than later.

I think the smaller boat would give me more valuable boat handling skills, and I could save money as I could to most if not all of the work on myself without marina services. I could also utilize local canals much easier that the larger boat. The larger boat would teach me more about systems but less about the actual art of sailing. Of course, sailing with friends would be much more comfortable on the 30.

So, which boat would you buy given my overall goals? Any insight will be much appreciated, thanks!

[davefromoregon]

Catalina 30s are frequently for sale at a low price and would provide you with a lot opportunity to learn both systems and sailing. You might find that those systems would improve the experience for you.

As always, get a survey so you know exactly what you are getting into.

[Olly75]

Originally Posted by intervivos

Long term goal is to work my way from inland waters daysailers to blue water cruising. Giving myself about 10 years to do this. First boat will spend most of her time on Lake Champlain, possibly some time on the great lakes. Given my time frame I have a dilemma and would like insight from folks.

Looking at either a 25 foot boat that I can trailer, or a 30 foot boat that will stay at a marina. Most 30 foot boats have a lot of comforts and systems that I don't think I need in my first boat. To give you an example, a Catalina 25 wing keel with a outboard, composting toilet, and a mast I can step myself is very appealing right now. Would keep it at a marina during the season, then move it home to work on it over the winter.

Moving up to a 30 foot boat means inboard diesel, plumbing, electrical systems that I will eventually need to know how to use/maintain/fix, in addition to the added marina costs of the larger boat. Learning the systems now would mean I would get some of this out of the way earlier than later.

I think the smaller boat would give me more valuable boat handling skills, and I could save money as I could to most if not all of the work on myself without marina services. I could also utilize local canals much easier that the larger boat. The larger boat would teach me more about systems but less about the actual art of sailing. Of course, sailing with friends would be much more comfortable on the 30.

So, which boat would you buy given my overall goals? Any insight will be much appreciated, thanks!

If I could go back four years and have this conversation with myself my advice would be to not buy anything, but join a sailing club that would let you cheaply rent anything from dinghies all the way up to 30 fters. Learn the basics and build a network of people and go racing and sailing as much as possible on as many different boats as possible.

In your spare time walk round any local boat yards and meet all the other unsuspecting sailors that bought a 'project' boat and offer your labour services for free to help them in any way possible.

The key to this is you are learning everything on other peoples boats. This way you both learn how to sail, have fun and refit boats for virtually zero cost to you. Plus experience a plethora of different boats to narrow down what you actually want and need in a boat.

In the long run this will save you many thousands.

[waeshael]

Originally Posted by intervivos

Long term goal is to work my way from inland waters daysailers to blue water cruising. Giving myself about 10 years to do this. First boat will spend most of her time on Lake Champlain, possibly some time on the great lakes. Given my time frame I have a dilemma and would like insight from folks.

Looking at either a 25 foot boat that I can trailer, or a 30 foot boat that will stay at a marina. Most 30 foot boats have a lot of comforts and systems that I don't think I need in my first boat. To give you an example, a Catalina 25 wing keel with a outboard, composting toilet, and a mast I can step myself is very appealing right now. Would keep it at a marina during the season, then move it home to work on it over the winter.

Moving up to a 30 foot boat means inboard diesel, plumbing, electrical systems that I will eventually need to know how to use/maintain/fix, in addition to the added marina costs of the larger boat. Learning the systems now would mean I would get some of this out of the way earlier than later.

I think the smaller boat would give me more valuable boat handling skills, and I could save money as I could to most if not all of the work on myself without marina services. I could also utilize local canals much easier that the larger boat. The larger boat would teach me more about systems but less about the actual art of sailing. Of course, sailing with friends would be much more comfortable on the 30.

So, which boat would you buy given my overall goals? Any insight will be much appreciated, thanks!

Answer:
You seem to have a good idea of what you want already and you are thinking right. The important thing is to go sailing on whatever in order to learn what makes it such an exciting lifestyle. You can learn to sail in a couple of weeks at any sailing club.
Don't get too concerned about doing it right the first time, that's no fun.
people will want to go sailing with you on the small boat. And a small boat is much cheaper to operate, and if you make an error it isn't going to cost an arm and a leg to fix. It will take you less than a year to get comfortable enough to want a bigger boat, and that is needed only for cruising long distance.
And if you are going blue water you will probably want something well built, an older boat, and a little bigger. The smaller the boat the longer you can afford to keep sailing. I wouldn't go offshore in anything under 30 feet, though many have. But it will be a bit cramped for two. The ultimate boat will need to have good sea berths parallel to the centerline and mid ships at water level for comfort. But there are many other design features you should look for. But that's for a later date. Right now just go sailing as soon as you can with the funds you have.

In a year you will be able to be the one giving advice.

Cheers

[jdazey]

Advice is worth what you pay for it (or less)


Unless your thinking of another intermediate boat along the way, I'd go the the 30'er with the thought that it's not too soon to start learning all the systems that go with offshore sailing or even coastal sailing and not too soon to learn how much work maintaining a boat can be. A 30' boat will still be a lot of fun to sail and not too hard to get off of the dock. Sails and other bits will still be of a manageable size.


In the end I suspect your budget will decide for you.


Cheers,

[roverhi]

My first real boat was a 26' keel boat with an outboard. Because of the keel had to keep it in the water but was in Hawaii so there was only one sailing season. Sailed that boat more than any other boat I've owned, except the one we took to SoPac, and made a small profit when it was sold. Did some reasonably serious open ocean sailing and, with the exception of an inboard, had all the systems you need to learn about on a larger boat just scaled scaled down a bit. The most important thing the boat was easy to maneuver solo and affordable. Smaller boats are just way cheaper to own. Accomodations weren't great but were fine for my bachelor existance as I spit my domiciles between that boat and a VW camper.

Your idea of a trailerable boat that you can keep in the water during the season and store at home over the winter seems like a good choice. It will keep costs down when you can't use the boat. Having the boat at home will allow you to do any 'projects' you undertake without having to pay haulout fees. Leaving the boat in the water over the season makes sense. The hassle of having to launch the boat each time you want to use it will certainly cut down on the time you actually do use the boat. Just being able able to take an evening sail on a whim will be worth the expense.

[thomm225]

I went with an old Bristol 27 to learn cruising, and even though I'd owned lots of small power boats and raced beach cats for about 15 years, the Bristol was a great teacher

I got it for $2,000 but have put another $7,000 into it over the last 7 years with new sails, engine etc

Luckily it already had good anchors and rode. GPS, Depth, VHF, autopilot, dodger and bimini.....

[Larry Florida]

A boat you can trailer for 2 years will save you a bundle. With your time horizon it's a great way to go. I thought about the trailer sailor but went with a 30 ft with inboard and most systems because at 60 years my sailing future was 10 to 15 years. There is no right or wrong as long as you get out there.

[Don C L]

I think Olly has a really good point, but if you are planning to buy, your idea of the smaller boat, for all the reasons you stated, is correct IMO. I might get a small fun boat like a Laser to buy and easily play with at my leisure, and rent all the bigger ones till I was more sure of things.
Welcome aboard BTW!

[JMitchell]

Originally Posted by Olly75

If I could go back four years and have this conversation with myself my advice would be to not buy anything, but join a sailing club that would let you cheaply rent anything from dinghies all the way up to 30 fters. Learn the basics and build a network of people and go racing and sailing as much as possible on as many different boats as possible. .

I'm in the same position as the OP. When I read your reply my initial thought was "thats great advice". Then I went online to and looked up rental costs $200 for a 4 hours rental of an old Catalina 22. Larger and newer boats only get more expensive. I can buy an identical boat for $3900 or less. Thats less than 10 days of practice sailing, any time I want, as long as I want before I'm on the cash+ side of that equation.

As much as I like your idea of learning on other people's boats, I can't "invite myself" to go sailing, and the people I know with boats just arent going sailing that often.

Anyway, I'm following this thread in the hopes of gaining more knowledge before I consider making a move on anything.

[JPA Cate]

Welcome aboard CF, intervivos,

This, from waeshael:

If I could go back four years and have this conversation with myself my advice would be to not buy anything, but join a sailing club that would let you cheaply rent anything from dinghies all the way up to 30 fters. Learn the basics and build a network of people and go racing and sailing as much as possible on as many different boats as possible.

In your spare time walk round any local boat yards and meet all the other unsuspecting sailors that bought a 'project' boat and offer your labour services for free to help them in any way possible.

The key to this is you are learning everything on other peoples boats. This way you both learn how to sail, have fun and refit boats for virtually zero cost to you. Plus experience a plethora of different boats to narrow down what you actually want and need in a boat.

In the long run this will save you many thousands.

********************

Or, the small trailer sailer:

1) For a minimal investment, you will learn to sail, and you will buy the boat with the plan of upgrading sometime, if you find you like it--not everybody does. The low initial investment, and ease of sale when you are finished with it is really attractive.

When you're mulling this over, remember that a lot changes for people over the time of 10 yrs. For that reason, waiting a bit on the 30 footer also makes sense to me, and if you decide you want the larger one, the option is there, after the first 2 yrs., so what you give up to wait, is your fantasy of learning to take care of a more serious boat. You lose the flexibility of taking the trailer sailer to other venues for sailing that only Lake Champlain.

My Jim had a Catalina 22 trailer sailer (not his first t.s.) that he raced and trailered between San Francisco bay, to local and distant lakes, to So Cal, and as far north as Washington, where he and his at-the-time-family sailed it to Canada. Lots of adventure possibilities with a t.s.

I do not know if there are sailing clubs with boat rentals on Lake Champlain, but imho, both approaches have a lot to offer.

The person who wrote in about having midships berths parallel to the centerline of the boat sure got that right! Good on ya, mate.

Enjoy,

Ann

[Olly75]

Originally Posted by JMitchell

I'm in the same position as the OP. When I read your reply my initial thought was "thats great advice". Then I went online to and looked up rental costs $200 for a 4 hours rental of an old Catalina 22. Larger and newer boats only get more expensive. I can buy an identical boat for $3900 or less. Thats less than 10 days of practice sailing, any time I want, as long as I want before I'm on the cash+ side of that equation.

As much as I like your idea of learning on other people's boats, I can't "invite myself" to go sailing, and the people I know with boats just arent going sailing that often.

Anyway, I'm following this thread in the hopes of gaining more knowledge before I consider making a move on anything.

Fair enough, as an example I joined a sailing club recently as my boat is out of action, I can rent a lazer for $25 for two and a half hours. Its just about finding the right club. I found a place that does racing one night a week for $15 on a catalina 22 and on Wednesdays I've been going beer can racing in the bay. Its true, you can't invite yourself, but if you get in with the local racing crowd show up when asked at short notice and buy a couple of beers afterwards, in pretty short order your phone will be ringing off the hook!

This does assume that there is a racing crowd on your local lake obvs.....

[anacapaisland42]

Buy a 12 to 14 foot sailing dinghy with 2 sails and a kick-up centerboard.
You'll learn more about sailing in a season than in 3 years on a bigger boat. AND, it will be cheap enough to keep for fooling around when you do get a bigger boat.
Bill

Originally Posted by intervivos

Long term goal is to work my way from inland waters daysailers to blue water cruising. Giving myself about 10



So, which boat would you buy given my overall goals? Any insight will be much appreciated, thanks!

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Olly75

If I could go back four years and have this conversation with myself my advice would be to not buy anything, but join a sailing club that would let you cheaply rent anything from dinghies all the way up to 30 fters. Learn the basics and build a network of people and go racing and sailing as much as possible on as many different boats as possible.

In your spare time walk round any local boat yards and meet all the other unsuspecting sailors that bought a 'project' boat and offer your labour services for free to help them in any way possible.

The key to this is you are learning everything on other peoples' boats. This way you both learn how to sail, have fun and refit boats for virtually zero cost to you. Plus experience a plethora of different boats to narrow down what you actually want and need in a boat.

In the long run this will save you many thousands.

The first boat I got was an IOR-influenced 33 foot '70s racer-cruiser. It was akin to getting Porsche as one's first car. The only reason I didn't get into severe trouble learning to sail on it (it took about three seasons to get the best out of it, at which point I would happily sail it in 30 knots) was that I was race crew at the club level on 27-41 footers for five seasons. I learned what to do and what not to do, and I learned to cruise efficiently, I'd have to say, with a lot of racing techniques (halyard tension, sail flattening, even the old-school Cunningham) transferrable to our cruising activities, which have always been fast, because we have the skills now to sail in a way that emphasizes performance as well as prudence (don't wreck the gear) and safety (don't overdo it; know the crew's limits as well as the boat's).

So I concur with the advice given to sail as crew on a wide range of boats in race situations BUT ALSO to offer to crew for older cruising couples in well-found vessels who are in their last seasons of sailing prior to a trawler or an RV. You'll learn a lot and you'll know what you want in the context of actually having developed sailing skills.

[coastalexplorer]

In two words....Drascombe lugger,


additional info. About us


(I have seen one of these sailing in our local harbour Ladner British Columbia)
So either they are selling plans for local build or they are exporting them completed.