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Old 23-06-2016, 18:40   #106
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

These are so terribly painful for all however in terms of the speculation in this thread I actually find it helpful. While it is true we do not know anything it is amazing how many different scenarios and problems arise in the minds of the experienced sailors in this thread. Even if all guesses end up being wrong I find value in reading through the multitude of perspectives. Seeing the many ways things can go wrong, while somewhat frightening for a fairly new sailor, is also helpful in terms of developing a solid checklist in my mind. So while all the input in this thread is speculative and could possibly prove inaccurate, it has been helpful for me to read.
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Old 23-06-2016, 18:43   #107
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by OneLeggedParrot View Post
Wow


Well. Pending some miracle, its getting close to 24 hours now, unless Im mistaken.
Theyve found 3 bodies of the 4. And theyve recovered almost all the useful flotation devices -kayaks, lifevests, pfds correct?
...

+
OneLeggedParrot,
Unless you have another source, only two bodies have been recovered; first the girl yesterday, then another today three miles on, presumably a male family member.
In the worst case, with the boat foundering late Sunday, it is now four days past. Don't know about any 'miracles', but the odds are getting long for live rescue.
Of course it could have foundered later. An autopsy may reveal the ToD for those recovered, probably known by now but not released yet.

It is a very tragic event, those young ones had their whole future's ahead of them. Perhaps one or two will survive yet, we can all hope for the best.
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Old 23-06-2016, 18:57   #108
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by rbyham View Post
These are so terribly painful for all however in terms of the speculation in this thread I actually find it helpful. While it is true we do not know anything it is amazing how many different scenarios and problems arise in the minds of the experienced sailors in this thread. Even if all guesses end up being wrong I find value in reading through the multitude of perspectives. Seeing the many ways things can go wrong, while somewhat frightening for a fairly new sailor, is also helpful in terms of developing a solid checklist in my mind. So while all the input in this thread is speculative and could possibly prove inaccurate, it has been helpful for me to read.
On that note I'd also like to suggest to all to check you can detach your harness quickly and easily, and in the dark, if needed. As a former commercial river guide, I also keep a knife in a quick release sheath on my pfd. Not at all common, I know. I have never had to use it, and I have never had to detach my harness, not even close, it's just something I think about. Still, that said, there is no way to be completely ready for anything, but you can come pretty close.
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Old 23-06-2016, 19:05   #109
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Every time something like this comes up, the Monday morning QBing starts and a whole different group starts to come on and talk about how horrible it is that people are evaluating the tragedy and that we should have empathy. It happens in the aviation world, too. Yet, we keep reading the same stories with people doing things that result in tragedies.

While I agree that we need to be empathetic, this is absolutely a tragedy when 4 family members are killed, we also need to take time to evaluate what we went wrong and apply it to ourselves. While the alcohol discussion is probably a bit of a stretch in this context, discussions around the preparation and decision making certainly are not. If anything, we need to be having more of these conversations and discussions, not just here, but with those physically around us.

We need to be willing to have uncomfortable conversations and break down these tragic events, then apply them to ourselves and the community. People are doing irresponsible things on boats. I walk around the marina and hear people bragging about their irresponsible behavior all the time and rarely does anyone say anything. By educating ourselves and those around us about these events, as tragic as they are, we can prevent future tragedies.

It is possible to be empathetic and still evaluate the lessons learned.
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Old 23-06-2016, 19:11   #110
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Yes, so sad. And one issue I, myself have is how easy it is to go MOB on this size of sailing vessel. I wonder myself how in the heck I would stay on.





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Old 23-06-2016, 19:19   #111
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
Every time something like this comes up, the Monday morning QBing starts and a whole different group starts to come on and talk about how horrible it is that people are evaluating the tragedy and that we should have empathy. It happens in the aviation world, too. Yet, we keep reading the same stories with people doing things that result in tragedies.

While I agree that we need to be empathetic, this is absolutely a tragedy when 4 family members are killed, we also need to take time to evaluate what we went wrong and apply it to ourselves. While the alcohol discussion is probably a bit of a stretch in this context, discussions around the preparation and decision making certainly are not. If anything, we need to be having more of these conversations and discussions, not just here, but with those physically around us.

We need to be willing to have uncomfortable conversations and break down these tragic events, then apply them to ourselves and the community. People are doing irresponsible things on boats. I walk around the marina and hear people bragging about their irresponsible behavior all the time and rarely does anyone say anything. By educating ourselves and those around us about these events, as tragic as they are, we can prevent future tragedies.

It is possible to be empathetic and still evaluate the lessons learned.
Excellent post! We should all think carefully about the ideas here, and then perhaps apply them to our responses to situations like this.

Jim
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Old 23-06-2016, 19:50   #112
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Nothing wrong with Monday-Morning quarterbacking ... Usually it's the result of frustration and an input of ideas ... some good ... some bad ... some out in left field.

Every accident and tragedy, should call on all of us to re-evaluate how we do things ... even in a comparative manner with the tragedy.

I think that most posters want to focus in on the human side with empathy ... a commodity the human race doesn't have enough of, while others just want it not to have happened ... why did it happen ... how could it happen.

I've sailed since the early 90's and I'm far from accomplished. My mind tells me not to go out in bad weather, or even if bad weather might approach ... I'm a sorta chicken-sh-t, and I have no schedule telling me I need to do something at a specific time(except doctors).

Most people have hard decisions constantly, about doing things that schedule requires, whether it's going to work sick(a hazard to others), driving in fog, snow and/or sleet ... most people have to be somewhere at some time ... it's life.

We sailors know the feeling of joy at being on the water, many of us also know the "hidden" fear that exists when something strong looking and menacing approaches ... we hold back our fears and face the impending situation ... and usually come out of it stronger, more aware of what the seas can throw at us, and thankful at getting through it.

I feel a special empathy having known that tinge of fear, and what these poor souls endured... I can only wish it was different.
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Old 23-06-2016, 20:02   #113
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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A sad and tragic event.

The gulf is my cruising grounds so I read with interest about the conditions experienced here. But I've missed something or don't understand.

Is it correct that the winds were out of the east, and therefore an offshore wind? If so I don't understand the statements describing short period square waves, chop, and unpredictability.

I made this same run a couple of months ago with 20+ knots steady, no gusts, and a full moon. Leaving St.Pete and overnight to Ft. Myers. The wind never let up. Reefed down and doing hull speed on auto pilot. Stayed in close about 2-3 miles out to avoid 25+ further offshore.

Wind and swell were on the beam and seas were 1-2 feet. Running almost parallel to the seas it was the best ride I have had yet. There was almost no motion of roll and pitch for hours at a time.

Was it actually onshore winds? Earlier someone posted it as an easterly.

I've never made a run offshore with onshore winds, and hopefully never will. After many, many coastal hops and a dozen overnighters I've never seen seas over 4 feet in the gulf.

Even the couple of times caught by thunderstorms, one lasting several hours, the seas never built up, just wind.

I've never been caught by a front offshore however. And I think one may have came through on Sunday.
four winds,
There was a significant windshift on Sunday. The westerlies veered to north then settled in as easterlies through Tuesday. IMO, this was due to the influence of developing TD/TS Danielle in the Yucatan area.
The east winds were in the 20-25 knot range as measured at the NDBC WFS Central Buoy 42013 offshore buoy, located between St. Pete and Ft. Myers. Unfortunately the wave data is missing, apparent ongoing instrument trouble.
Times UTC, velocities in m/s, use your Windows calculator to convert.
45 day history-
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/realtime2/42013.txt

NDBC - Station 42013 Recent Data

NDBC - Observations - Radial Search

National Data Buoy Center


I'm GOM based too, surprised you've never encountered any seas above 4', or any fronts. Very prudent, I've seen 10'-12's, even on a Hobie ; and many northers/fronts. Busting 4'-8' surf was always great fun.
The TX coastal winds are probably 70% onshore, S/SE/E prevailing winds. And the West GOM can develop a nasty short period 'chop' too. A strong outgoing tide bucking a heavy E/SE wind at some of the passes can whip up square waves.
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Old 23-06-2016, 20:09   #114
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Good news the reports of a mast being found was false! Not an expert but i would hope that means the chance of finding the sailboat floating with survivors increases?

Quote:
USCGSoutheastVerified account ‏@USCGSoutheast 2h2 hours ago
#UPDATE @USCGSoutheast crew investigated sail boat mast confirmed false report; was crab pot, fishing gear.
https://twitter.com/search?q=%40uscgsoutheast
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Old 23-06-2016, 20:11   #115
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Unfortunately not a happy ending. Found the daughter's body with the missing life jacket.

Family Member Confirms ID of Body Recovered in Search for Man, 3 Teens Off West Coast of Florida | NBC 6 South Florida
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Old 23-06-2016, 20:25   #116
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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This is sad and deeply moving. How many sailors are we going to lose before we realize that the sea does not care about our schedules, our need to repair our boats, or that we are a family outfit? I morn with the family that lost a dad and their valiant children. How I wish they had chosen differently.
Well said. The sea does not even know we exist.
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Old 23-06-2016, 20:39   #117
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Thanks Tx J, for those links. I'll study them.

I do now recall on Sunday the front coming down and becoming stationary when it reached Sanibel Island that evening.

It seems this unfortunate family experienced the changing conditions while underway. With the front overtaking them and then stalling out ahead or on top of them.

I'm tucked in a small anchorage near the mouth of the Okechobee and it did get nasty Sunday afternoon.
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Old 23-06-2016, 20:57   #118
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

It is a tragedy.
It is good to share as a cautionary tale too, that others may learn from it.

I think it is always good to put a face to the names, because these are people who were lost.

Here is a nice photo, made by a friend of mine (Bob Dein of Sarasota) and posted here with his permission, of the young girl who died in this incident. He took this photo recently, as I recall, about a week ago.

Rebecca, 17
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Old 23-06-2016, 21:17   #119
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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It is a tragedy....it is always good to put a face to the names, because these are people who were lost....
Rebecca, 17
Thanks.
That helps. Heading into the prime of their lives.
...But man, tugs on the heart IMMENSELY.

I wonder how many other sailors would have reached out, had we known how dire a situation they were going to get into.
...I had a friend a few years ago, had a heavy duty Venus Ketch- went out not once or twice, but THREE times into some serious hell to pull people off of their sinking craft and save their lives.

Keep it in mind,-reach out! There's TONS of experience, and caring out there. We can't stop each other making foolish choices, but we MIGHT be able to give you some options that could help save your lives.

Had I known, -or maybe any of us- I'd have ferried them myself. Or paid for a night for them all in a nice hotel, go the next day when the weather improved.
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Old 23-06-2016, 21:20   #120
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Just watched the local news report.

The father's sister said the family was very happy on the water. And the kids always told her they loved life on the boat with their dad.

The reporter repeated the account of a flare being seen today. That it was observed by a civilian from shore at 2:00AM this morning.

Also it was reported a bucket was recovered today that contained a wallet, cell phone, and other items I don't recall. My thought was it sounded like a makeshift ditch bag of sorts.

I hope it truly was a flare that was spotted. And all hope is not yet lost.
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