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Old 27-06-2016, 15:45   #376
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Just for interests I thought I might put this up.

And please note: in Australian waters the phone number to call is 000, not 911. I point that out as thousands of children growing up in the 70's here thought our emergency number was what was in Sesame street and it took the authorities almost a decade to rectify it.

I'm using Tasmania as the example and there are some changes throughout Australia's jurisdictions, but the following will still give an idea. And as I said before, whilst some of you may think a dictatorship is coming, we generally see it as common sense. Making stupid decisions regarding sea safety is not an individual act, it risks the lives of our rescue services, many who are also volunteers with families. The cost to us is not relevant, despite the media trying to make it be on every incident.

The lists are for boats under 6m and over 6m and then within 'sheltered waters' and 'coastal waters'. They are the only two catagories. 'Off Shore' simply comes under 'coastal' or 'outside sheltered waters'. Where I have written 'all' then it's compulsary.

Anchor rope and chain - all
Bailer/bilge pump - all
life jackets - all
Fire extinguisher - all
Flares - all
Oars/auxiliary Propulsion - all under 6m and recommended boats over 6m
Marine radio - All coastal waters, recommended if sheltered waters.
Heaving line - All (except boats under 6m in sheltered waters)
Life buoy - above 6m in all waters
epirb - all non sheltered waters (recommended for vessels above 6 m in sheltered waters but not compulsary)
Radar reflector - all coastal
First aid kit - all coastal (recommended in sheltered waters)
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Old 27-06-2016, 15:56   #377
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
Mark, you are probably speaking off shore. I can't see it for the guy with a 16 ft. skiff on a trailer.

Where do you draw the line?
There should be a line, and a conversation about where it should be. I would suggest coastal waters, and certain bays, over a certain size. Don't forget that there have been incidents where the boat started close to shore, and was blown/washed further out, so a defined distance from shore wouldn't work very well.
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Old 27-06-2016, 15:59   #378
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

It seems a firestorm has erupted over my EPIRB comments. Let me say it once again more clearly. I am not advocating government mandated EPIRB usage. But I am saying that we as cruisers ought to have an EPIRB if for no other reason than because it greatly reduces the strain/cost/risk to the SAR teams. They know exactly where the EPRIB is and when the emergency erupted. So as a matter of common sense an EPIRB is very helpful.

There is no merit IMO to argue that the mere existence of an EPIRB has some "bad" effect and I won't get into that debate because it is ridiculous to me. Likewise, there is a big difference between training and real SAR situations. The argument that long extended SAR missions are "costless" since they offset the training budget is pretty tenuous.

This family was on a one-off passage for a few days. They could have rented an EPIRB for about $65 per week and even less for a couple days. So I don't accept that the cost is prohibitive. I suspect that most families have no idea they can have this security for themselves and their families for such a small amount of money. Several posters here seem to not know about it so that suggests some education is warranted.
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Old 27-06-2016, 16:00   #379
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by TurninTurtle View Post
Lets make it mandatory to put a VHF on a Sunfish. That's a recreational boat and people DO take them out in the surf.

Yep... sounds good.
TT, while I do understand your comment, I would point out that currently there are some differences in requirements based on boat size. Perhaps those same descriminations could apply here.
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Old 27-06-2016, 16:02   #380
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Just for interests I thought I might put this up.

And please note: in Australian waters the phone number to call is 000, not 911. I point that out as thousands of children growing up in the 70's here thought our emergency number was what was in Sesame street and it took the authorities almost a decade to rectify it.
And in New Zealand it's 111
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Old 27-06-2016, 16:04   #381
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
There's a Coastguard minimum safety equipment list right now. I have no problem with EPIRBs being added to the list, if that is deemed appropriate. In fact I would support it.

Right now whether you had the equipment on the list has no bearing on what resources are sent to search for you, which is as it should be.

We are simply discussing whether the current minimum equipment list is appropriate. I don't think it is.
This is Tasmanias manditory equipment list. It is sensibly divided up into boat sizes and areas. There are other requirements lesser requirements for unpowered craft such as sailing dinghys, kayaks and the like.



Basically coastal waters are out past two miles offshore for the most part.

I have never been checked. Normally its only if there is an incident, or if they are doing fisheries patrol.

One big anomally is the fact that you are required to have a VHF, but not the licence to operate it... It would be nice if the rules were more outcome based and less prescriptive. Ie outcome of having an means of satellite emergency comunications that is waterproof and selfcontained. This would mean an epirb, spot, yellowbric, plb etc would all be satisfactory.
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Old 27-06-2016, 16:11   #382
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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And in New Zealand it's 111
Good to know, in case I ever accidentally end up in New Zealand. Just curious, is that your entire contribution to this discussion?
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Old 27-06-2016, 16:37   #383
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

If you fall off your boat with a life jacket on and in the GOM in June how long can you last?

What would reduce your chances the most. Hypothermia, sharks, dehydration, or still drowning.
I have never tested a life jacket for days and days.

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Old 27-06-2016, 16:58   #384
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by tuffr2 View Post
If you fall off your boat with a life jacket on and in the GOM in June how long can you last?

What would reduce your chances the most. Hypothermia, sharks, dehydration, or still drowning.
I have never tested a life jacket for days and days.

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I think a tether that keeps you in the boat might increase your chances pretty markedly. If you are singlehanding and are further out than you care to swim back, tethers are pretty helpful if you use them.
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Old 27-06-2016, 17:01   #385
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

From the results of the woman who kept trying to swim to Florida from Cuba...

Jellyfish stings might take you out in days (or hours) if you got in the middle of them.

Jellyfish stings ends woman's bid to swim from Cuba to Florida

Shark might decide you're a seal and thus lunch.

Or you might survive a long time if you are in warm enough water.

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Tether helps you get back on a boat that is still floating... or drags you down with the one that is sinking. If you tether... keep a knife on your belt.
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Old 27-06-2016, 17:08   #386
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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----- Whilst we have taxpayer funded search and rescue each of us should think long and hard about the selfish attitude laid bare by the refusal to have an EPIRB on board. Knowing the exact location of the boat or survivors greatly reduces the SAR resources required to find you.
Well --
There is a certain school of thought that says that if you go offshore in small boats you have no right to expect to be rescued courtesy of other people's tax dollars.
This school of thought is best exemplified by those sailors who purposefully do not carry any equipment capable of communicating beyond VHF range.
The point being that if you are going to drown your butt in the middle of the ocean than you won't bother anybody beyond VHF range.
Seems to me that this would greatly reduce the expenditure of SAR resources, since they won't know anything about you.

Before the vultures start in on me, let's assume that the above does not apply to vessels carrying children, or anybody not capable of making such an informed decision themselves.

Here's an idea -- if you want an EPIRB or similar device, why doesn't the government make it mandatory for you to pay for an insurance policy that will reimburse the various SAR organizations if they have to go rescue you?

If you don't want an EPIRB, then you don't have to pay for the insurance.
Of course you have an increased risk of drowning, but that's your choice, not a government mandate.
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Old 27-06-2016, 17:17   #387
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

I did watch the tether test video on this thread. I will make sure a tether is short enough that I do not have a chance to go over the side. The boat going 7 knots dragging a tethered body is a sure way to drown.

Also one person posted a pic of a black tip shark in the GOM.

That made me wonder about the chances of a shark finding and then deciding to bite a person floating at night.

Man, just typing that sends chivers up my spin. Floating in a life jacket at night in the ocean...put that on my list of things I never want to do.

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Old 27-06-2016, 17:30   #388
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by TurninTurtle View Post

***************
or drags you down with the one that is sinking. If you tether... keep a knife on your belt.
You shouldn't have one of those stupid hooks on your end of the tether that you can't release under load. I don't understand that at all. And the boat hardly needs to be sinking at all, just some fwd motion can pull your head under water.
I think wearing the popular tethers with the hooks on both ends that will not release under load is pretty dangerous.
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Old 27-06-2016, 17:40   #389
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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.
If you don't want an EPIRB, then you don't have to pay for the insurance.
Good idea, maybe.

On a different note, my insurance company requires an EPIRB for any journey to the Bahamas. Never heard that before but they are much cheaper than BoatUS so the EPIRB paid for itself.
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Old 27-06-2016, 18:05   #390
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

I dunno if i should post at all... I havent read everything about this tragedy and was at sea when it happened.

But i have been wondering about the seamanship skills needed in a survival situation like this one where the father has to keep the boat afloat, then prep for abandoning and saving the 3 kids with the equipment provided.

As some of you know I have done a fair bit of sailing offshore... I just dont think I could ever have the skills to have saved this situation. The boat seems to have been poor, the equipment poor, and not actually sailed often. Yes it was lived aboard, but not sailed often, apparently.

The only way to get sailing skills up is to sail. Sail. Sail some more.

We all make mistakes, and its always a series, a causal chain, that ends in devastation, not just one event. But by sailing often we know what needs to be fixed and how to get out of situations better.

Finally, and I know how many threads there are about cruising on $500 per month etc, but a boat takes significant money to keep maintained... More than just the hours of work we must put in but money to buy and replace equipment.


Terrible tragedy


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