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Old 25-06-2016, 21:14   #256
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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I also seen some of the emails you sent my passenger in Fiji,
You scared the living **** out of her, You can be proud of those ones,
Huh? I don't know your passenger, her e-mail address, or WTF you are talking about.

And for the record, the rescue of Tony Bulimore was at ~52 deg S, 100 deg E. This point is approximately 1275 miles from Cape leeuwin, the SW point of Australia, not 4000 miles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Bullimore

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Old 25-06-2016, 21:36   #257
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Very sad set of circumstances.. Hopefully some good will come of it; maybe someone considering going offshore in a similar vessel will read about this tragedy, rethink their plans, and prevent another accident from happening.
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Old 26-06-2016, 00:23   #258
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by LEOCAT66 View Post
My heart goes out to them, as they seemed to be a happy, well bonded family, attempting to make the best of their situation, and doing it together. Very unusual these days to see such a bond between a parent and teenagers, they had something very special going.
My and of course every heart in this forum goes out to them. What you write about the family sounds romantic, hope it was like that, i.e. their own free choosing. But maybe it was at times also really difficult to live on such a small boat with four persons, and they had no other good option being very poor?

- Who knows if they could have needed help before already?

- Maybe there isn't not only something to learn from the sad accident but also from the situation before?

(Of course this is speculation and it is difficult to say something from far away northern Europe, I think as a normal citizen you couldn't do such an off grid life with children not going to public school without the government intervening (no judgment intended)).
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Old 26-06-2016, 00:46   #259
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Just thought I might throw in here, for all of those that think the sky will fall in if mandatory carrying of epirbs happen. We have had mandatory carrying of epirbs in Australia for being off shore for quite a while now. No one questions it. No one that I know of inks it's bad. It's just common sense.
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Old 26-06-2016, 03:18   #260
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Just thought I might throw in here, for all of those that think the sky will fall in if mandatory carrying of epirbs happen. We have had mandatory carrying of epirbs in Australia for being off shore for quite a while now. No one questions it. No one that I know of inks it's bad. It's just common sense.
I agree, common sense.
Saving lives and saving time and resources in a search and rescue situation.
Some people thinks it restricts their freedom and that big Government is taking over.
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Old 26-06-2016, 03:32   #261
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Offensive and embarrassing. Can we delete this?
Offensive and embarrassing. Can (mustn't?) we leave if for its (among other things) educational value?

"Where we would wish to reform we must not reproach"

Thomas Paine, from "The Rights of Man", 1792.
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Old 26-06-2016, 03:50   #262
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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"Where we would wish to reform we must not reproach"
Thank you, jim bunyard, for that quote.

Personally, I am not at all sure reform is needed here, but I understand the compassionate thinking behind the situation.

However, had you in mind that home schooling (which could easily account for the kids not being enrolled locally) might actually have been a better deal for these kids?

Or if you had in mind rescue, exactly which reforms might you recommend?

Sorry for being so testy, but, really, all of do the best we can, given our finances, intellectual capabilities, and so forth. Therefore, I do not think that necessarily, any kind of reform is indicated based on this incident.

These folks were way outside the norm. Please do not strangle all the rest with legislation because of this one tragic incident.

Ann

PS to Blu353,

Hi there, I don't think we can count on that report being true, and if it were, the Dad may have been home schooling the kids, which is OK in the US, as long as the kids pass routine tests from the state in which they live. (There are checks.)

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Old 26-06-2016, 04:10   #263
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Just thought I might throw in here, for all of those that think the sky will fall in if mandatory carrying of epirbs happen. We have had mandatory carrying of epirbs in Australia for being off shore for quite a while now. No one questions it. No one that I know of inks it's bad. It's just common sense.
Yeah, what we have down here is a pretty sensible balance I think on the whole. Minimum very basic and cheap safety equipment requirements depending on the waters you are in, and a basic fairly cheap and simple 1 day boating licence. Seems much better than say the draconian NZ category 1 requirements for any NZ boat sailing offshore.
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Old 26-06-2016, 05:02   #264
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Just thought I might throw in here, for all of those that think the sky will fall in if mandatory carrying of epirbs happen. We have had mandatory carrying of epirbs in Australia for being off shore for quite a while now. No one questions it. No one that I know of inks it's bad. It's just common sense.
After a tragedy like this there is often a call for more mandated safety equipment or compulsory certification.

Personally I think the UKs approach of education, rather than legislation, is better.

In terms of the specific issue of the the compulsory EPIRBs in Australia (for offshore), you can put me down as one who thinks there are times when it's not helpful. A simple example will be when the battery in your EPIRB expires. If there was no legislation I would recommend you purchase PLBs for each of your crew (two PLBs are a similar cost to single EPIRB) and attach them to your life jacket/harness.

The battery ratings in the EPIRBs are conservative so this combination would likely still give you a working EPIRB plus you and a crew her would have a PLB (essentially an EPIRB with a slightly shorter battery life) attached to their lifejacket. Lots of redundancy. In the event of sudden sinking (say a collision) or fire, there is a much better chance of still having a mechanism to alert the authorities.

A better and safer option in my view for no more cost, but it does not comply with the law in Australia.
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Old 26-06-2016, 05:40   #265
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Thank you, jim bunyard, for that quote.

Personally, I am not at all sure reform is needed here, but I understand the compassionate thinking behind the situation.

However, had you in mind that home schooling (which could easily account for the kids not being enrolled locally) might actually have been a better deal for these kids?

Or if you had in mind rescue, exactly which reforms might you recommend?

Sorry for being so testy, but, really, all of do the best we can, given our finances, intellectual capabilities, and so forth. Therefore, I do not think that necessarily, any kind of reform is indicated based on this incident.

These folks were way outside the norm. Please do not strangle all the rest with legislation because of this one tragic incident.

Ann

PS to Blu353,

Hi there, I don't think we can count on that report being true, and if it were, the Dad may have been home schooling the kids, which is OK in the US, as long as the kids pass routine tests from the state in which they live. (There are checks.)

Ann
The quote was directed to Hearts Content, who, because of their apparent...discomfort... at psneelds' (admittedly presumptive) comment about the possibility of misdirection of 'family assets'. I was alluding to one of the founding principles of modern civilization, freedom of speech.

Which is somewhat of a segue into an important point in this discussion, freedom to make mistakes.

I don't see where homeschooling even enters into the picture here. Given some of the products of the institutional schooling that I know personally, I can understand a concerned parents' wish to find something better...though I also know some 'home schooled' children where the description would be more accurate if it were 'home indoctrinated and mis-educated'.

As for reform of the rescue procedure, without knowing there was a problem, how could SAR have done anything any differently?

Agree that they were outside the norm sociologically and probably in the luck and weather categories as well. After looking at all the buoy reports in the area for June 19th, it seems almost certain that they ran into a localized, short term high wind event in a boat that was below par with a very inexperienced skipper. Obviously this is a personal opinion, but there is no way two years (if that is true) experience is enough if conditions get dicey offshore, especially in a weak vessel. Too many times I have seen and assisted people who have no business being in control of a boat, never realizing how close to grief they have come...several times with very young children on board.

That being said,, I have absolutely no interest in having the government (or anyone else) legislate common sense. These people took their chances, just like the rest of us do every day. From the pictures and reports posted they seemed reasonably healthy and happy, and for that, at least, they will be missed...
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Old 26-06-2016, 05:43   #266
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

^^ Noelex, I am not 100% happy about PLB's to replace an epirb. There are some significant drawbacks to a PLB such as less battery life (24 vs 48 hrs), they don't need to float rightway up and transmit so they generaly need to be held in position or straped in the correct position on a lifejacket. And they seem to me like they are about the same price range anyway in your average chandlery in australia.

For me I own and carry both, gps models only.
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Old 26-06-2016, 07:14   #267
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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. That being said,, I have absolutely no interest in having the government (or anyone else) legislate common sense.
It appears that seat-belt laws in cars and airplanes have saved thousands of life's over the years.
Would you rather have those removed to make it a personal decision to fasten seat belts?
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Old 26-06-2016, 07:28   #268
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

CSY:

that's tough ... I don't like the seat belt law, but I always wear mine and feel safer with it on(never had an accident in 45 years).

The seat belt law induced me to wear it(initially) and within a few weeks I was "hooked" ... I guess the law worked it's charm on me ...
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Old 26-06-2016, 07:52   #269
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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It appears that seat-belt laws in cars and airplanes have saved thousands of life's over the years.
Would you rather have those removed to make it a personal decision to fasten seat belts?
Very broadly, in my opinion, it is the governments place to legislate when ones actions cause harm to others. If by not wearing your seatbelt, you cause someone else harm (real, quantifiable physical harm, though pyschological harm is real enough it is much harder, if not impossible to attach a value to it), then the powers that be should act. Which they have done. In excess.

As I tried to imply, it is common sense to have and know how to use safety equipment. The government has done their job in that respect, and are in danger (in the US anyway) of exceeding it.

Not to get too serious about it, there is some truth behind the 'Darwin Awards'. Why do you think insurance rates for teenage to young 'adult' males are so high? (That is a rhetorical question)
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Old 26-06-2016, 08:00   #270
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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^^ Noelex, I am not 100% happy about PLB's to replace an epirb. There are some significant drawbacks to a PLB such as less battery life (24 vs 48 hrs), they don't need to float rightway up and transmit so they generaly need to be held in position or straped in the correct position on a lifejacket. And they seem to me like they are about the same price range anyway in your average chandlery in australia.

For me I own and carry both, gps models only.
These are all valid points. Although I would point out that the battery life of a PLB needs to exceed 24 hours at -20 C (-4F). At reasonable temperatures the battery life will be much longer. The PLB fixes and transmits its position with its own GPS so there should not be a lot of time spent searching.

The main advantage for a PLB is that it can strapped to your harness/lifejacket so that it is always likely to be available even in an emergency situation that develops with little warning. Attaching the PLB to the lifejacket also solves the flotation/aerial orientation problem.

You are right about the prices. The cost of EPIRBs in Australia has come down since I last looked and a PLB is now only slightly cheaper than a manual EPIRB.

In the situation I described (with limited funds) I would still opt to add a PLB to my lifejacket/harness to compliment the EPIRB with its expired battery. To me this is more sensible than a similar cost spent on a second EPIRB. However, I accept not everyone would make the same decision.

It is a good job we have a choice.

Oh wait, Australian boat owners don't
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