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Old 24-06-2016, 16:46   #181
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
...And it could have been murder suicide by boat wreck...
... It is an old saying and one worth restating. Never speak ill of the dead...

FOR REAL?!!!
Well, for not speaking ill of the dead, that's quite an idea to put out there without any evidence against people you don't know.

FACTS WE KNOW:
(a) Father had three teenage kids
(b) He had successfully raised them into happy, healthy teenagers
(c) He had done this for at least 9 years SOLO.
(e) NO ONE ELSE was on the boat with them
(f) He DID have a phone, and called out

We don't know (but speculate)
-IF he was aware of the brewing conditions OR NOT
-That he did NOT have a better radio on board
-That he did NOT try and get help sooner or via VHF
-How bad or the condition of the boat and repairs needed.

Let’s add some details...

(1) The weather got NASTY quick in a place not uncommon
We can speculate on the father's state of mind, and his choices with going sailing in a volatile place without better gear, especially with kids and with his REPORTED experience. But that the weather got bad is verifiable by outside sources. In a boat with possible issues, that could have been a big contributor. HOWEVER even in a sound, capable boat, it STILL could have been THE ONLY issue.

(2) The BROTHER trusted the dad enough to NOT make a distress call.
The brother's "inaction" indicates a few things: perhaps he also trusted the father knew what we was doing, so wasn't too worried. However, maybe the brother didn’t really care, or knows nothing about sailing or simply didn’t know how bad it was:, we don’t know except he didn't call for help.

(3) The BROTHER was on LAND somewhere else VIA a PHONE call
It’s a FACT that he was NOT on the boat. Maybe we can wait for more info before we DECIDE he was an idiot (same about the dad's)?

(4) Dad RAISED 3 HAPPY, HEALTHY KIDS for NINE YEARS SOLO
That's a fact presented by the biological mother herself. Any comment?(-and we want to question or judge his commitment to his kids???) HISTORY SHOWS: He had been successfully raising...THREE healthy, HAPPY kids on his own. That indicates to me he was committed, competent, capable, and CARED DEEPLY and was doing his best.

(5) The girl was FOUND in her PFD.
I think if it was anything other than an accident the father would have stashed/hidden or left the life vests no where near the boat.


NOT FACT/REPORTEDLY:
We HEAR he was not rich: he lived on a boat. He had THREE teenagers. We do NOT know how much of a reach it might have been FOR HIM to get a few more safety things...
-like an EPIRB.

Maybe he got a used one and didn't set it up right before he left. We don't know. Maybe he just did, and they haven't released that info because the battery was shot- or it got washed overboard, or they got hit by lightening (anyone sound off on what conditions were like for that, that day?). Maybe everything went wrong all at once and someone went over the side.

We also do NOT know if he was aware of the weather coming on.
Being that he has been found dead, we can only speculate. it will be known soon if he was drinking or not and then that can be ruled out, if it hasn't already.

Guessing from the evidence presented so FAR,
OUTSIDE OF THE EPIRB ISSUE
...and calling for help sooner (if they could) he probably DID NOT make an irresponsible choice about going where he did.

There’s people who have sounded off on here from that area and they were surprised a bit by the weather, but also to an extent the area is known to be volatile. Does this stop people from going sailing or cruising? No. And we don’t call them idiots for being sailors or cruisers, right?

DID HE REALLY NOT KNOW? HOW DO WE KNOW HE DID NOT? HOW DO WE KNOW HE DIDN'T MAKE THE BEST CHOICE HE COULD IN THE SITUATION that came up worse than anticipated! Maybe they had an accident, or a series of them.


REPORTEDLY:
(a) The boat was needing repairs. What exactly we do NOT know, HOWEVER....
(b) Judging from the HISTORY and FACTS above, father was not a negligent, inexperienced, unconcerned, uncaring, uncommitted OR ignorant parent OR sailor.
(c) Father’s choices INDICATE he was at LEAST slightly alternative and independent (qualities not uncommon for the cruising and sailing crowd, I’ll remind you- and often lauded).


Now without further evidence,
the FACTS indicate
(a) this WAS NOT intentional -he was a committed, dedicated, successful father and single parent -no indication otherwise
(2) this was NOT planned -Life jackets were on board, the daughter was found in her PFD
(3) this was NOT foreseen at all -we don’t know if he was aware of the weather OR is the issues with the boat would have mattered. Considering all the above, and despite what we can deduce from presumption and speculation around things that make us upset now that there’s been a tragedy it is unlikely he made an irresponsible choice.


...Especially if it winds up he WAS an excellent sailor as reported by people who knew him, and his own brother -who apparently trusted his skills (or simply knows nothing about sailing).


As the carefully considering people have pointed out, a MOB would have thrown things into a quickly serious state.


PLEASE Check THIS INFORMATION OUT:
(Links)

-->>Is it safe to use a tether? - Practical Boat Owner

-->>Viewpoint: Should Lifejackets be Mandatory on Sailboats? - Sail Magazine


. . . . .

Now I agree, from what it seems now, there's some things -small, possibly simple, not that difficult things, he might have done. (EPIRB)

But we ALSO do not KNOW that he did not do most of them.
Daughter or Dad goes over board, all three try and turn the boat and get the MOB, failing electrical/radios/gear (he DID use a cell phone, why not call using the VHF? Why NOT call the coasties vs. your not-there-brother?)

I appreciate the factual evidence by experienced sailors and people who live and cruise and sail in those areas.

And there's no WAY to prepare for everything, EVER. They might just have had an accident that snowballed.

I think the tragedy is an argument for making sure you have a functional EPIRB if you are in places where they are of use, and that it is mounted in a place where it can do it's job, and that you have registered it and verified it's function and use and everyone on board knows how to use/deploy it. HAVE a safety plan, if you can... especially if you are responsible for others.

That's it for me. I've read enough negativity from people who were not there, are not in the area, for sure don't know anyone involved, paying no attention to details (hope I have) and just armchair QB'ing with NO factual basis most of it!

I'll wait for the rest of the story from the investigators and USCG.
Maybe those boys will be clinging to a cooler still...
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Old 24-06-2016, 16:48   #182
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
The deathly ill and destitute often don't seek treatment. No surprise if their electronics on the boat was lacking.

Also no surprise if their rigging failed in a gust.

As for looking for looking for a dark side in this, that is evident in those that find a sick way to enjoy posting inflammatory comments in a topic about the loss of lives.
I said in my first post something about sound of mind.

I have posted nothing inflammatory other than what is possible or not...non judgemental.

I was responsible for sending assets out on many a rescue...valid or not.

If you think losing lives at sea or posting about it is enjoyable to me....sir...please feel free to PM me so I can tell you what I really think about the situation and your post.
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Old 24-06-2016, 16:53   #183
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I just sent a note to NOAA to disregard any attempt for you to register an EPIRB/PLB....

I also sent them a link to this thread....they fully understand....
That was totally uncalled for and personal.

I find it repugnant.
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Old 24-06-2016, 17:06   #184
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
That was totally uncalled for and personal.

I find it repugnant.
As soon as you brought up "nanni state crap"....

You indignance went right out the window..

And the smiley face meant something that obviously went over your head in your outrage against government forcing common sense on those incapable of it themselves.
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Old 24-06-2016, 17:11   #185
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
in your outrage against government forcing common sense on those incapable of it themselves.
Like driver licenses really help?

C'mon, now, please, keep it civil.

And, yes, I apologize for missing the

My bad, but your thoughts are what got me first. Sorry.
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Old 24-06-2016, 17:20   #186
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

My condolences to the family. This event has moved me deeply. There are no words to express how I feel. Peace to all who venture out.
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Old 24-06-2016, 17:28   #187
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Like driver licenses really help?

C'mon, now, please, keep it civil.

And, yes, I apologize for missing the

My bad, but your thoughts are what got me first. Sorry.
I hate to keep dragging this off topic but if you keep insisting.....

What was the US or any other place like BEFORE drivers licensing?

I posted before that I would hate to make EPIRBS/PLBs mandatory...but based on some people's experience...it's the only way we might keep them alive..unless you are in the Darwin ism crowd that says let the kids die too...even though they might be able to set off a PLB but not know what to do when their sails are blow out and dad went overboard.

Please keep pressing...every post gives me a better platform to show some of the experience lacking the truth about search and rescue.

I am not judging this family in any other way than statistical in the eyes of search and rescue. If any of my posts seem harsh...it is not from personal judgement...just what can, will, might happen...all things considered.
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Old 24-06-2016, 17:29   #188
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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..it's the only way we might keep them alive..unless you are in the Darwinism crowd that says let the kids die too...even though they might be able to set off a PLB but not know what to do when their sails are blow out and dad went overboard.
Please do not attribute to me what I have NOT said. Thanks.

I am truly sorry for this tragedy. I fully agree that there are technological advances that could have helped the situation, if not the eventual outcome.

However, I do not believe that mandatory requirements for equipment are the solution.

Try this: You keep harping on EPIRBs, where let's say if the govt REQUIRED every boater to HAVE AND USE a VHF, he might, just might, have been able to call the CG, in which case they could have, maybe, triangulated his position.

But the govt only says if you have a VHF and it is ON...

And the from the reports on this and other boating forums, he didn't even have a VHF.

That does NOT preclude careful, attentive boaters from having this equipment and blinkin' USING IT.

Does it?

When I go out in the ocean, I have two VHFs, monitor the shipping traffic on VTS, and have the CG number preloaded in my cell phone.

Not so hard.

He called his brother, NOT the CG? No one know, or will know, what really happened.

If I went further afield, I might invest in or use BoatUS to rent an EPRIB. In 35+ years sailing SF Bay and the ocean, I have decided not to do so.

Your boat, your choice.

I do not believe it should be a govt's choice.

I simply disagree with you, and respect your (differing) opinion.
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Old 24-06-2016, 17:36   #189
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Please do not attribute to me what I have NOT said. Thanks.

I am truly sorry for this tragedy. I fully agree that there are technological advances that could have helped the situation, if not the eventual outcome.

However, I do not believe that mandatory requirements for equipment are the solution.

Try this: You keep harping on EPIRBs, where let's say if the govt REQUIRED every boater to HAVE AND USE a VHF, he might, just might, have been able to call the CG, in which case they could have, maybe, triangulated his position.

But the govt only says if you have a VHF and it is ON...

And the from the reports on this and other boating forums, he didn't even have a VHF.

That does NOT preclude careful, attentive boaters from having this equipment and blinkin' USING IT.

Does it?

When I go out in the ocean, I have two VHFs, monitor the shipping traffic on VTS, and have the CG number preloaded in my cell phone.

Not so hard.

If I went further afield, I might invest in or use BoatUS to rent and EPRIB. In 35 years sailing SF Bay and the ocean, I have decided not to do so.

Your boat, your choice.

I do not believe it should be a govt's choice.

I simply disagree with you, and respect your (differing) opinion.
When I had young kids..they could flip the switch and turn on a PLB....If VHF DSC was available then...same thing....

Asking panicky occupants whether kids, crew or guests to call or use the VHF is light years behind PLB tech.

You have your opinion...I can only hope others see the light.
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Old 24-06-2016, 17:39   #190
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
When I had young kids..they could flip the switch and turn on a PLB....If VHF DSC was available then...same thing....

Asking panicky occupants whether kids, crew or guests to call or use the VHF is light years behind PLB tech.

You have your opinion...I can only hope others see the light.
Don't disagree with you here, either. See what a nice discussion can do?

So, we agree that a VHF is a good thing.

VHF DSC even better.

He had neither.

He did use his cell phone. Seemed like he called the wrong "support group."

PLB would certainly have determined position, right? And helped rescuers spot the location.

Nothin' to disagree with there.
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Old 24-06-2016, 18:09   #191
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by OneLeggedParrot View Post
FOR REAL?!!!
Well, for not speaking ill of the dead, that's quite an idea to put out there without any evidence against people you don't know.

FACTS WE KNOW:
(a) Father had three teenage kids
(b) He had successfully raised them into happy, healthy teenagers...
.
.
.
.
.
...
That's it for me. I've read enough negativity from people who were not there, are not in the area, for sure don't know anyone involved, paying no attention to details (hope I have) and just armchair QB'ing with NO factual basis most of it!

I'll wait for the rest of the story from the investigators and USCG.
Maybe those boys will be clinging to a cooler still...
Decaf, OneLeggedParrot, switch to decaf ! (I was going to put that sentence in the "Jolt" font, but it's not available )
The image of an over-caffeinated two legged parrot is hyper, a one legged parrot takes it into warp-drive...

Agree with some of your points, but there is a maximal way to be prudent, prepared, aware within reason; this father and captain seems to have missed it.
For example, the apparent lack of a VHF radio. You can find inexpensive ones all over, a used one from ebay or craigslist for $20-40. Handheld or fixed with an antenna too.
You can also call the Coast Guard via telephone, but you need the numbers handy.
He seems to have provisioned a bucket with their valuables and a pool noodle (look at the USCG press releases).
There were cigarettes in the bucket, add up that addiction's (direct) cost and you have a nice suite of emergency gear in a short time.
Perhaps he had acquired some sailing skills in the year or two they were in FL, coming from landlocked TN, but demonstrably still unskilled.

And I'm very skeptical of many of these hearsay reports that seem to be in the local media. The one about seeing a flare at 2AM by someone ashore, at 2AM closing time... (BTW, uncorroborated by the USCG); and many other inconsistencies.
Yes, we'll all wait for the official reports. But by that time nobody is paying attention. It's good that the discussion here and elsewhere continues apace; while the incident is still highly visible.


The rest of y'all, tone it down.
I know where psneeld is coming from; he's likely as PO'ed as I am that this preventable incident has occurred, one of many past and future.
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Old 24-06-2016, 18:45   #192
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Quote:
.
Poverty (and I suspect that is the situation) makes for far fewer options than most of us have. Driving on bald tires or with the gas gauge near empty, or sailing with a marginal boat is something that most of us will never have to deal with. When you are dirt poor you make do with what you have. The more comfortably moneyed among us might say that if you cant afford a proper boat, you should not be on any boat. Living on that little boat probably cost 1/5 of what apartment living would have cost. I give the guy credit for trying to raise his kids on the water, it beats the hell out of trying to raise them under an overpass or in a tent hidden away from sight. The ending is very sad, but the life they were trying to do was probably the very best they could manage. _____Grant.
Living on a crap boat at a dock because you are poor is fine.
Taking the same boat offshore without a radio in bad weather is stupid, and deadly, no excuses.
Not sure why anybody is trying to justify the stupidity?
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Old 24-06-2016, 19:10   #193
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

There are conflicting reports about the flare being spotted.

One said I was a civilian onshore, and another said it was both a search vessel and a helo that spotted the flare.

All reports stated it occurred at 2:00 or 2:30 AM Thursday.
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Old 24-06-2016, 19:37   #194
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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There are conflicting reports about the flare being spotted.

One said I was a civilian onshore, and another said it was both a search vessel and a helo that spotted the flare.

All reports stated it occurred at 2:00 or 2:30 AM Thursday.
Reports from two professional on scene units (Go Coasties):

Coast Guard continues search for sailboat with father and 3 teenagers missing; finds second kayak, sights flare

"At 2:26 a.m. Thursday a Jayhawk crew and a 45-foot Response Boat-Medium boatcrew witnessed a white flare while conducting the search."

Unsubstantiated conjecture:
Somebody on this thread cited a local media report by an ashore civilian at 2AM, who was forty miles from the scene anyway. Valid?
Do you drive around at 2AM? Why not? I used to as part of my work, one can make some accurate assumptions at that time.

With things like this you cannot trust media or the hearsay, the truth usually turns out different.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_HH-65_Dolphin
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Old 24-06-2016, 20:19   #195
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

That was probably me than posted about the local news report of the flare spotted from shore.

The flare had been mentioned in the thread but without any details, if I recall correctly. I heard it mentioned on the news so I posted what I heard. Even though at the time I was asking myself how could that be accurate. Later in the thread I read of the other accounts of the flare spotted.


Just watched the news tonight. The brother was interviewed to answer the questions about why he didn't call in sooner.

He said there was no stress in the father's voice, that there was no mention of it being an emergency. He said the dad ask him to do favor, and text him about the weather forcast. So he would know when it was going to break.

It was one minute max on the news. What I've posted is everything conveyed in the report.

No report of whether he sent a text or tried to contact the father again.

For what it's worth, I've used my cell phone offshore there out to eight miles at times. But there are areas along there where coverage does not exist even one mile offshore. This is typically between the larger population areas.

Sometimes I have checked the radar app and had no signal. Then an hour later check again and have a signal at the same distance offshore.
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