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Old 24-06-2016, 15:22   #166
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Ann, while I have only used an offshore route in this area, I do believe the ICW would be slower. Friends have gone that way, and I have done some planning on that route. There are 6 or 8 bascule bridges and a rather winding course in places in the area.

Offshore it's one leg to the Port Charlotte fair water mark and a few degrees change to port to the south of Sanibel Island. Then a turn east in the bay off Ft. Myers Beach.

Should have been a fun day hop and much less stress than the ICW. But personally I believe the dad made a tragic mistake in his weather planning.

When I look at my simple radar app it doesn't show fronts. And there was no precipitation anywhere in the area Sunday morning. I have to go to the NWS, Weather Undergound, and Paasage Weather to check the location of fronts, winds, and waves for passage planning.

Someone mentioned depths offshore in the area. Five miles out along this path is still around 50 feet. And not a lot deeper ten miles out. Except around the pass at Port Charlotte where shallows flank the channel about that far out as well.

Again personally, I think the dad knew he didn't want to experience challenging conditions offshore, for several reasons. And he thought it would be the easy day hop it most often is. But unfortunately he failed to realize how conditions were to change that day.
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Old 24-06-2016, 15:23   #167
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
if you do not smoke, drink, paint your boat, put zincs on it, have a cell phone, go to a movie now and then, drink cola, eat prime cut meat over ground pork, etc....etc...then you are right, that $300 is a big deal..if you do any of the above and, much much more....you are kidding yourself.

While I agree it shouldn't be a law...it is just common sense if you go to sea and value your life....
My statement was not "I can't afford $300", it was that $300 is a lot of money. If something for the boat costs $300 I really think it over before choosing whether to buy it or not. I just had to buy two new seacocks at nearly $300 each, and a new anchor at close to that as well. Those are both priority safety areas so I am happy to do it. $300 for other things is very much not worth it to me.
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Old 24-06-2016, 15:28   #168
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
$300? $100 or less will get you a simple, cheap Cobra VHF, and from all reports he didn't have even that.

What the heck does someone's diet or going to the movies have to do with boating?

He didn't go to sea, he went down the coast for 60 nm and didn't check the weather reports. Which he coulda and shoulda checked on his phone.
You are correct in saying there are even cheaper ways of protecting yourself...

But you are incorrect if you are inferring that relying on VHF is a better bet than a PLB.

Sorry if you don't get my logic flow...people are saying being destitute is a reason not to be safe...at some point that is reasonable...at many points it is BS.

It can be argued that the LESS experience a person is, the more safety gear they should carry or be required to carry. Could his phone have saved him? Maybe, assuming he knew what he was looking at.

Pick apart my logic...but saying he did something foolish isn't even a point to be discussed at the tech safety level.
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Old 24-06-2016, 15:40   #169
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by four winds View Post
Ann, while I have only used an offshore route in this area, I do believe the ICW would be slower. Friends have gone that way, and I have done some planning on that route. There are 6 or 8 bascule bridges and a rather winding course in places in the area.

Offshore it's one leg to the Port Charlotte fair water mark and a few degrees change to port to the south of Sanibel Island. Then a turn east in the bay off Ft. Myers Beach.

Should have been a fun day hop and much less stress than the ICW. But personally I believe the dad made a tragic mistake in his weather planning.

When I look at my simple radar app it doesn't show fronts. And there was no precipitation anywhere in the area Sunday morning. I have to go to the NWS, Weather Undergound, and Paasage Weather to check the location of fronts, winds, and waves for passage planning.

Someone mentioned depths offshore in the area. Five miles out along this path is still around 50 feet. And not a lot deeper ten miles out. Except around the pass at Port Charlotte where shallows flank the channel about that far out as well.

Again personally, I think the dad knew he didn't want to experience challenging conditions offshore, for several reasons. And he thought it would be the easy day hop it most often is. But unfortunately he failed to realize how conditions were to change that day.
Thanks for coming back on this point, fourwinds.

There's also this to consider, with only an o/b, inside, he wouldn't have been able to make good progress against the tidal flow; outside, he had the wind to help. Part of the mast has washed up, no way of knowing when in the cascade of events that occurred.

Ann
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Old 24-06-2016, 15:41   #170
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Get used to Reeds posts. He seems to know boats, but many of his opinions are truly disgusting, but this is the internet so he has the right to his opinions. ____Grant.
I would dispute that he know boats, he seems to know just enough to be dangerous as those with less experiance might believe some of the rubbish he spouts, I think his comments on here and (a few other posts) are despicable.

My condolences to the family and friends. Such a sad and tragic event. Made more so by the fact that it was so avoidable, but then most accidents are.


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Old 24-06-2016, 15:48   #171
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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My statement was not "I can't afford $300", it was that $300 is a lot of money. If something for the boat costs $300 I really think it over before choosing whether to buy it or not. I just had to buy two new seacocks at nearly $300 each, and a new anchor at close to that as well. Those are both priority safety areas so I am happy to do it. $300 for other things is very much not worth it to me.
Look at the boat, 29 feet with an outboard.

Talk to me about thru hulls and an anchor versus a $200 item (see that they do come with rebates) on a boat like this, travelling offshore with children on board.

Like I said, most people fitting this families description will spend $200 on chew, drink, eating out, etc, etc....did this family? I can't say...but like many folks who say they never have enough money, they spend a tidy sum in places many don't when funds are short.
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Old 24-06-2016, 15:56   #172
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Count me in the mandatory EPIRB camp. The lives of boaters, especially children, and rescue personnel trumps whatever political leanings one might have.

I give no credence to the argument that having an EPIRB aboard makes one less cautious. I've never heard of anyone disabling their EPIRB or other safety equipment to sharpen their attention to keeping the boat afloat.

Fair winds,
Leo
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Old 24-06-2016, 16:04   #173
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

I've considered the EPIRB for sailing on a LAKE. The blue is about 400 miles away.
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Old 24-06-2016, 16:18   #174
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Count me in the mandatory EPIRB camp. The lives of boaters, especially children, and rescue personnel trumps whatever political leanings one might have.

I give no credence to the argument that having an EPIRB aboard makes one less cautious. I've never heard of anyone disabling their EPIRB or other safety equipment to sharpen their attention to keeping the boat afloat.

Fair winds,
Leo
What do political leanings have to do with any of this? Mandatory anything, to me, means supplanting personal responsibility with nanni state crap.

I agree with the less cautious statement. But, to me, EPIRB's are AFTER THE FACT things, when, IMHO, not getting into those situations, especially in this case, would have been far superior.

And this is NOT Monday morning QB-ing. He had a phone. He had access to weather reports.

My friend, in Chicago, uses his phone to find out what weather's coming, and has learned to use it --- he tried out a few apps and found a few that work.

It would seem that even the "usual" afternoon thunderstorms on the FL coast would have been too much for that boat.

Sad.

Piss poor planning...
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Old 24-06-2016, 16:26   #175
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
What do political leanings have to do with any of this? Mandatory anything, to me, means supplanting personal responsibility with nanni state crap.

I agree with the less cautious statement. But, to me, EPIRB's are AFTER THE FACT things, when, IMHO, not getting into those situations, especially in this case, would have been far superior.

And this is NOT Monday morning QB-ing. He had a phone. He had access to weather reports.

My friend, in Chicago, uses his phone to find out what weather's coming, and has learned to use it --- he tried out a few apps and found a few that work.

It would seem that even the "usual" afternoon thunderstorms on the FL coast would have been too much for that boat.

Sad.

Piss poor planning...
I just sent a note to NOAA to disregard any attempt for you to register an EPIRB/PLB....

I also sent them a link to this thread....they fully understand....
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Old 24-06-2016, 16:28   #176
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Any idea of how the mast might have been found floating? Did that boat have a timber mast? Most alloy masts will sink like a stone when cut loose after a dismasting.

Seems odd.

Jim
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Old 24-06-2016, 16:37   #177
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Any idea of how the mast might have been found floating? Did that boat have a timber mast? Most alloy masts will sink like a stone when cut loose after a dismasting.

Seems odd.

Jim
what seems odd is the connection to an object about 70 miles from the primary search area.....

Some non traditional search and rescue asset claimed to see a "mast" some 70 plus miles from the primary debris field...

My experience as a rescue coordinator....check but low priority.....

But you are also correct in wondering about a floating mast unless these were filled with foam...
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Old 24-06-2016, 16:39   #178
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Any idea of how the mast might have been found floating?m
Last word from Coast Guard Southeast was that it was not a mast:
https://mobile.twitter.com/USCGSoutheast/status/746125633449668608

Definitely a sad situation no matter the circumstances.
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Old 24-06-2016, 16:39   #179
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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What do political leanings have to do with any of this? Mandatory anything, to me, means supplanting personal responsibility with nanni state crap.
This sounds like a political statement to me, but the more important issue is that a mandatory EPIRB might have saved this family. Perhaps not; the event could have been so sudden that no rescue was possible or the father could have violated the law and not equipped his boat with the required EPIRB.

On the other hand, the tragedy could have been even worse had rescue personnel been lost; with an EPIRB the search could have been much sooner and the search area smaller.

Fair winds,

Leo
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Old 24-06-2016, 16:39   #180
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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...........

Sorry if you don't get my logic flow...people are saying being destitute is a reason not to be safe...at some point that is reasonable...at many points it is BS.

........

.

The deathly ill and destitute often don't seek treatment. No surprise if their electronics on the boat was lacking.

Also no surprise if their rigging failed in a gust.

As for looking for looking for a dark side in this, that is evident in those that find a sick way to enjoy posting inflammatory comments in a topic about the loss of lives.
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