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44'cruisingcat · 03-04-2016, 17:29

Of course, nobody should even think about going sailing until they have at least 5 circumnavigations behind them.

**JPA Cate** · 03-04-2016, 17:52

Polux, et al,

I was right with you, all the way to your final paragraph,

Quote:

Telling rich people, that may never have sailed, that it is alright to come and have an experience racing a 70ft racer around the globe, that they don't need to have any experience in what regards sailing, is in my opinion an irresponsible act and one that should not be allowed.

.

You see, offering the experience implies that it is alright, yes. But, they are also undergoing man overboard training, which should be at the least a warning to the rich, big ego types. And the rbe types, should still do their own "due diligence." The information IS out there that deaths occur during these races, in addition to the warning implicit in the MOB training.

So, for me, although their advertising could be considered an irresponsible act, in fac,t I think you'd find that for these high performing, high energy, successful types, some of them would disregard any warning--as people disregard the warnings published on packets of cigarettes, for instance. Individual choice trumping "nanny state." I think it is better for the sport overall, to insist that everybody take responsibility for him/herself.

People, who are loved by someone die every day. One can easily be struck down by a car, or stung by a bee, but are you going to stop riding in cars or walking in the country? Most likely, not. There is risk. Where there is life, there is also death. This is about acceptable risk, and while those be types may choose to think they are impervious, well, that's their choice.

I see where you're coming from, in that a high level racing skipper would not at first expect he has to impose his will on the customers, in fact that's just what he has to do to help the team work. The skipper's the boss, and if he says, "always clip on going forward," they'd get to complain about it, but not disobey. Even if he didn't make it a blanket rule, and only said people with under 5 yrs. racing had to, the customer should be peer pressured into doing what the skipper says, and the skipper should make that happen: their lives may depend on it. To some extent, though, the racing ethic sort of goes against that, and it takes a special skipper to do that. And yet, life's just full of events that are not "perfect".

Does it mean more regulation? I surely hope not!

Ann

Polux · 03-04-2016, 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I don't see how you could describe a sailor with 20,000 miles in that boat as being anything other than experienced. In that boat.

And IMO, experience, no matter how much, in any other boat would be far less relevant.

I don't see it that way. Put an inexperienced driver on a powerful race car everyday around a circuit for an year and we will be able, with some luck, to drive the car slowly but he will never learn to drive that car at a racing pace simply because he would have to start with karts, much less powerful cars learning all the steps till be able to fully race a powerful race car.

It would be wrong to say that after a long time driving that car that he was an experienced racing driver on that car.

Here they put people without experience in a 70ft powerful racing boat and contrary to a car where someone can always be easy on the throttle, here when the wind is strong it is very dificult to hold a fast boat down and suddenly they will be sailing at a truly racing pace, with huge forces involved and big waves washing over the boat.

It was like if that poor guy on the racing car, turning slowly and carefully around that circuit for many days, had suddenly the throttle open and was forced to drive the car at the speed experienced racers drive that car. Disaster would not take much time to happen.

vjm · 03-04-2016, 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't see it that way. Put an inexperienced driver on a powerful race car everyday around a circuit for an year and we will be able, with some luck, to drive the car slowly but he will never learn to drive that car at a racing pace simply because he would have to start with karts, much less powerful cars learning all the steps till be able to fully race a powerful race car.

It would be wrong to say that after a long time driving that car that he was an experienced racing driver on that car.

Here they put people without experience in a 70ft powerful racing boat and contrary to a car where someone can always be easy on the throttle, here when the wind is strong it is very dificult to hold a fast boat down and suddenly they will be sailing at a truly racing pace, with huge forces involved and big waves washing over the boat.

It was like if that poor guy on the racing car, turning slowly and carefully around that circuit for many days, had suddenly the throttle open and was forced to drive the car at the speed experienced racers drive that car. Disaster would not take much time to happen.

You make clipping in sound like a high level skill. She was not navigating or steering or calling for sail changes or maneuvers. Those would be more akin to the learned skills you are talking about. Clipping in? Not even close.

We get it. You think it is a dangerous race because it advertises itself as a venue for inexperienced sailors and then puts them in very challenging conditions. Point made. it is a good point and one I am sure the inquest will analyze and consider.

I hope some of the take away for others is that AIS beacons are not a man overboard plan. They are to aid in recovery. If the conditions are tough, or its night, the chances of being picked up in time are very small. Even with experienced crew.

MarkJ · 03-04-2016, 18:26

I . Am. Not .writing.a reply.

Not.

It So exasperates me when people think themselves, their business, their sport, etc so much more important than people's lives.

These scum were taking money from customers and then forcing them to unsafe methods.

How I wish these bastards who've killed 2 on one boat get some time in the lock-up. But they won't because it's a sailing race called the Clipper, Whitbred, or Vinadloo, whatever.

How dare they!

Sent from a stupid phone that replaces words with weird stuff.

44'cruisingcat · 03-04-2016, 19:06

2 fatal accidents in 20 years with over 4,000 amateur crew participating.

Are professionally crewed RTW race boats safer? Genuine question.

44'cruisingcat · 03-04-2016, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ

I . Am. Not .writing.a reply.

Not.

It So exasperates me when people think themselves, their business, their sport, etc so much more important than people's lives.

These scum were taking money from customers and then forcing them to unsafe methods.

How I wish these bastards who've killed 2 on one boat get some time in the lock-up. But they won't because it's a sailing race called the Clipper, Whitbred, or Vinadloo, whatever.

How dare they!

Sent from a stupid phone that replaces words with weird stuff.

How about those businesses that take money from complete novices, then let them loose in boats in cyclone-prone locations, with unmarked reefs without even the benefit of an experienced skipper aboard?

Or companies that take people's money then let them loose on public roads, with no more evidence of driving experience than a driver's license? (Which may not even originate in that country?)

Polux · 03-04-2016, 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

2 fatal accidents in 20 years with over 4,000 amateur crew participating.
.

Yes two dead but many wounded and rescued from the racing boats.

44'cruisingcat · 03-04-2016, 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes two dead but many wounded and rescued from the racing boats.

I ask again, do the professionally crewed races have significantly better safety records?

Polux · 03-04-2016, 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by vjm

.

I hope some of the take away for others is that AIS beacons are not a man overboard plan. They are to aid in recovery. If the conditions are tough, or its night, the chances of being picked up in time are very small. Even with experienced crew.

Yes that is a very good point. Sailors just over estimated the chances that one man overboard has to be rescued on nasty conditions in due time. The best is just to stay clipped to the boat at all time as a basic prevention in nasty weather.

Rustic Charm · 03-04-2016, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't think it is fair to put the blame on the skipper. He was on an unusual situation not having as crew an experienced professional racing team, not even racing top amateurs but mostly inexperienced sailors that he had to keep an eye on and on stressful situations, with 40k wind on a storm, that can be too much to ask or even impossible.

Also most of these "crews" are mostly composed by rich guys that are in it to feel what a real racing sailor feels, they paid well for the experience and rich guys are not used to follow strict orders from nobody. Some problems on that sector would to be expected at least in some cases, with the skipper.

One can be a good skipper with a racing crew were everybody knows what to do and everybody respect him and have problems to be strictly obeyed by an amateur inexperienced crew of people with big egos.

Regarding the experience that that crew had already I don't think they had got many 40k gales and in what regards that they are not probably experienced at least in what regards sailing it on a fast racing boat where the speed is big and the forces huge.

Maybe I am more sensible to the strangeness of putting a bunch of amateurs that according to the needed requirements, can even not have any sailing experience, on a big ocean racing boat and say they are a racing crew, under the command of a experienced skipper and prepared to do a circumnavigation race.

During my live I had made some sports at a reasonable level and I know very well what are the level of a top sportive, a good amateur a beginner or somebody that does not know nothing about the sport.

Sailing was not one of the sports I have done at a reasonable level, in that case it was more of an hobby, but I have followed sailing as a sport with interest for many years, particularly offshore racing and I know the time and experience that is needed to form an offshore racer of a 70ft sailboat and that is most time of a life, starting with dinghies, smaller offshore racers and only then bigger racers.

I do also have a considerable experience while a sailor and I do know that there is a huge difference between somebody that never sailed, a beginner with some sailing, a sailor with some experience and a very experienced sailor and the time that is required to pass from 0 to a very experienced sailor and I know also that a 70ft offshore racer, like the clipper, should have not only a crew of experienced sailors but a crew of experienced racing sailors, that is a quite different thing.

Telling rich people, that may never have sailed, that it is alright to come and have an experience racing a 70ft racer around the globe, that they don't need to have any experience in what regards sailing, is in my opinion an irresponsible and dangerous act one that shouldn't be allowed.

I wasn't putting 'blame' on the skipper, I was pointing out that the 'skipper' bares responsibility for the boat. That's quite different than blaming him for the death. In addition, the 'organisation' running the event, bares responsibility too. Again, I am not suggesting the organisation is to blame.

Polux · 03-04-2016, 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I ask again, do the professionally crewed races have significantly better safety records?

Yes off course, if we consider that these are not as fast boats as top racing boats and that contrary to top race boats these boats are not sailed to the limit.

The conditions experienced are very different even if they pose less risks to a top sailor sailing at the limit a top sailing boat than to an inexperienced sailor trying to sail a big fast racing boat.

Rustic Charm · 03-04-2016, 19:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux

I don't see it that way. Put an inexperienced driver on a powerful race car everyday around a circuit for an year and we will be able, with some luck, to drive the car slowly but he will never learn to drive that car at a racing pace simply because he would have to start with karts, much less powerful cars learning all the steps till be able to fully race a powerful race car.

It would be wrong to say that after a long time driving that car that he was an experienced racing driver on that car.

Here they put people without experience in a 70ft powerful racing boat and contrary to a car where someone can always be easy on the throttle, here when the wind is strong it is very dificult to hold a fast boat down and suddenly they will be sailing at a truly racing pace, with huge forces involved and big waves washing over the boat.

It was like if that poor guy on the racing car, turning slowly and carefully around that circuit for many days, had suddenly the throttle open and was forced to drive the car at the speed experienced racers drive that car. Disaster would not take much time to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Do you actually read the drivel you write?

I'd say his logic is pretty sound. His example of racing is spot on and is what many professional formula one races complained about with the Japanese rich guy participating. After the first season there were a lot of complaints about his abilities which were putting the others at risk.

But in this case, 20 000 miles in the 'one race' makes her experienced in that one race. It does not make her an experienced sailor.

Polux · 03-04-2016, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I wasn't putting 'blame' on the skipper, I was pointing out that the 'skipper' bares responsibility for the boat. That's quite different than blaming him for the death. In addition, the 'organisation' running the event, bares responsibility too. Again, I am not suggesting the organisation is to blame.

Not you, I was referring to this post:

"Another question is what moral culpability lays with the skipper? I say moral because being responsible many times goes beyond what is required by law to what is the moral right thing in a given situation. So I ask, if it were a car with children and you as the adult failed to make sure the children had their seat belts on, an accident happened and a child was thrown out the window and killed, wouldn't there be a moral responsibility in this situation on the adult in this circumstance? So I ask, who was the adult on board? Who was the captain who has the ultimate responsibility for the crew? Did he/she tell the novices (children as per sailing experience) in his/her care to buckle up at all times and especially in a storm? Yes I think there is need of an inquest and yes I think serious questions should be asked of the captain. And this should be a lesson for all captains. When you have "children" (inexperienced adults) on board you have the same moral responsibility as that driver of a car who has just picked up a car full of local kids from the soccer match."