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Old 04-04-2016, 08:23   #106
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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√ Nice but...

pride is not equal to complacency.
True, but the two go hand in hand with amazing consistency . . .

The more pride, the harder you have to fight.
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:31   #107
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

A sailor died. She will be given a sea funeral. I am so sad. I hate it when people who go for it go away.

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Old 04-04-2016, 08:55   #108
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pirate Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

I would suggest the 'Cliiper Crews' go through a much higher level of training than most CF members have experienced during their 'initial learning curve'... both in theory and practice..
So I find Polux's argument weak.. this is a large team venture as opposed to 1 or 2 people racing dinghies where one steers and the other tends the sails..
Iit covers survival at sea exercises involving immersion and righting rafts.. first aid at sea, seamanship and navigation.. up to a standard where anyone should be capable of managing the vessel should circumstances arise..
I'm not talking.. keep racing even after the skipper and 1st mate are lost..
I'm talking getting the boat to a safe port afterwards.. most 'big boat racers' apart from the 'Pro's' who work the circuits (mainly Aussies and Kiwi's) buy their positions as crew.. its all part of raising the $$$'s from rich sponsors..
Sure there'll be a 'Pro Skipper' who'll have the final say.. but many helm racing boats because they 'bought' the wheel.
https://clipperroundtheworld.com/about/training
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:57   #109
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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A sailor died. She will be given a sea funeral. I am so sad. I hate it when people who go for it go away.

b.
Indeed. It's very sad.


We should be more careful to stay on the boat in bad weather, especially on sleds like that. It will require different procedures and habits.


I wonder if having the AIS beacon led to complacency? It's a useful, if hard and painful lesson to see that it does not guarantee that you will be rescued in time.

I also wonder why it took them so long to find her, if they knew her exact position? I guess it would take some time to stop a flying sled like that, but still?

I'm not sure it would have made any difference in this particular case -- as if she was dead after an hour, she probably died quickly and from drowning, rather than from hypothermia, and might well have been knocked on the head while going over.

Whatever happened, it's very sad.
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:10   #110
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pirate Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Dockhead.. think back to one of your stormy nights in the North Sea.. running a beam reach in big seas.. or beating into the wind..
You've got to rouse the crew for big sail changes then turn the boat and possibly tack back to where she went over.. the engines on these/most boats are not much use in those sea's.. 5-6metres.. and once you get to the approximate position you have to spot something the size of a football in the dark, confused seas and then when you finally have.. you have to get the boat into the right position for the pick up.. unlikely they got her on the first pass..
Much different from a Solent exercise..
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:18   #111
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Dockhead.. think back to one of your stormy nights in the North Sea.. running a beam reach in big seas.. or beating into the wind..
You've got to rouse the crew for big sail changes then turn the boat and possibly tack back to where she went over.. the engines on these/most boats are not much use in those sea's.. 5-6metres.. and once you get to the approximate position you have to spot something the size of a football in the dark, confused seas and then when you finally have.. you have to get the boat into the right position for the pick up.. unlikely they got her on the first pass..
Much different from a Solent exercise..
Yeah, I see what you mean. What a nightmare.


But wouldn't you just immediately heave to to stop the boat? Is that not possible on a vessel like that? If it takes you even a whole minute, you're still not going to be more than a few cables from the victim, even if you are making 20 knots. That's standard procedure on my boat, anyway.
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:25   #112
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Yeah, I see what you mean. What a nightmare.

But wouldn't you just immediately heave to to stop the boat? Is that not possible on a vessel like that? If it takes you even a whole minute, you're still not going to be more than a few cables from the victim, even if you are making 20 knots. That's standard procedure on my boat, anyway.
yours is a heavy displacement boat, not a race boat.
the wrong maneuver in those conditions on a race boat can be much more devastating than just a MOB.
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:44   #113
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pirate Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Standard Practice taught to the best of my knowledge is the Fig:8.. Tack or Gybe.. depending on the wind angles circle back to cross your path then circle again to complete the 8 and approach the MOB from the safest angle.. the helmsman has to calculate the options quickly while calling the crew up to work the sails.. just need to turn the wrong way to double the recovery time.. that's under sail.

Under Motor.. always turn to the side of the MOB.. ie: Port turn Port..

Most though eventually develop their own technique once they Know their own boats.. the way you heave to..
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:58   #114
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Standard Practice taught to the best of my knowledge is the Fig:8.. Tack or Gybe.. depending on the wind angles circle back to cross your path then circle again to complete the 8 and approach the MOB from the safest angle.. the helmsman has to calculate the options quickly while calling the crew up to work the sails.. just need to turn the wrong way to double the recovery time.. that's under sail.

Under Motor.. always turn to the side of the MOB.. ie: Port turn Port..

Most though eventually develop their own technique once they Know their own boats.. the way you heave to..
There are a number of MOB's / COB's under sail.

My upwind preference is a heave-to, sail-to , heave-to method. You do not need to come about, drop or luff sails.

Downwind techniques are generally the same with the exception of the pickup.

Under sail - upwind



Under sail - downwind



Under power - Anderson turn




Under power - Williamson turn

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Old 04-04-2016, 10:00   #115
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Standard Practice taught to the best of my knowledge is the Fig:8.. Tack or Gybe.. depending on the wind angles circle back to cross your path then circle again to complete the 8 and approach the MOB from the safest angle.. the helmsman has to calculate the options quickly while calling the crew up to work the sails.. just need to turn the wrong way to double the recovery time.. that's under sail.

Under Motor.. always turn to the side of the MOB.. ie: Port turn Port..

Most though eventually develop their own technique once they Know their own boats.. the way you heave to..
That's for when you have crew on deck at instant ready.

Our standard procedure is to heave to -- immediately STOP THE BOAT. That's our MOB mantra. That's because we don't always have crew on deck to immediately start tacking or gybing. It's much faster to heave to and stop, and then get back under way when you've got your sh!t together. Heaving to can be done in a couple of seconds just by putting the helm over hard which drastically reduces distance opening up to the casualty, compared to staying under way and futzing with a tack. Even rocking at 10 knots, I can stop my boat in a few boat lengths that way. Yes, I practice this, every year a few times. The main thing is keeping the boom under control, if the mainsheet is eased. You have to harden the mainsheet if it is and center the traveler or at least tie it off. But if you're sailing upwind with the main sheet on hard, you can stop literally in a few seconds.

This manuever also gives you a chance to work out where the casualty is and get oriented. If you're lucky and the sea is not too high, you might not even lose visual contact -- a huge, huge plus. It would depend on the particular case, but under many conditions, from the hove-to position, I would very likely start the motor and take in sail in order to increase maneuverability and control during the actual pickup. Blowing F8, with the casualty upwind, you might not have that choice, though.
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:05   #116
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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There are a number of MOB's / COB's under sail.

My upwind preference is a heave-to, sail-to , heave-to method. You do not need to come about, drop or luff sails.

Downwind techniques are generally the same with the exception of the pickup.

Under sail - upwind



Under sail - downwind


That's what we do -- with the most important act STOPPING THE BOAT RIGHT NOW. That's what I drill into my crew. STOP. The faster you stop, the more options you have, better chance of keeping the casualty in sight.

The search area goes up exponentially with distance, which is why every second is precious. Don't keep sailing. STOP.


The only thing different I do, is I would not do all that nice sailing shown in the diagrams, unless conditions required it. It's too much workload and distraction from finding the casualty and keeping him in view, and planning the pickup. I would take in sail and motor out of the hove to position. Better maneuverability, and you can see better without sails up. Obviously, don't run over the casualty.
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:10   #117
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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yours is a heavy displacement boat, not a race boat.
the wrong maneuver in those conditions on a race boat can be much more devastating than just a MOB.
Mine is actually a fairly light displacement boat, less than 200 D/L. Light and fast.

But I didn't assume that an Open 60 could be handled the same way, which was why I asked.

Does anyone know? Surely they can be hove to, not?
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:15   #118
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pirate Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

True.. but these are cruising boat tactics.. on boats without the loads that these boats have and the size of deck gear.. for major emergency course changes they'd need all crew (Gorilla's and Monkey's) on deck to work it safely through.. I don't know how these particular boats are rigged offhand but likely there were running backstays to tend.. winches or more likely 'Grinders' manned both sides for fast load transfers.. then once on the new course reefing down to have an effective search speed.. they're not designed and built for that kind of abuse..
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:17   #119
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Yup. Good luck with that "stop in your tracks" hahahahaha tactic in high seas. I will be in the commitee boat watching your frantic arm waving while drinking my warm banana and coconuttt coffee awaiting your breech.
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:59   #120
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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True.. but these are cruising boat tactics.. on boats without the loads that these boats have and the size of deck gear.. for major emergency course changes they'd need all crew (Gorilla's and Monkey's) on deck to work it safely through.. I don't know how these particular boats are rigged offhand but likely there were running backstays to tend.. winches or more likely 'Grinders' manned both sides for fast load transfers.. then once on the new course reefing down to have an effective search speed.. they're not designed and built for that kind of abuse..
Yes, I accept that. I've never sailed an Open 60 and have no idea how they handle in that. I hadn't thought about the runners, which I guess would prevent a quick heave-to like we do.

So that may be the explanation -- you just can't stop them like that. If it takes you a few minutes then at 20 knots (or whatever), you've already got a far bigger challenge, picking up a MOB.
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