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Old 03-04-2016, 20:45   #91
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Re: Clipper Race Fatality

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
How about those businesses that take money from complete novices, then let them loose in boats in cyclone-prone locations, with unmarked reefs without even the benefit of an experienced skipper aboard?

Or companies that take people's money then let them loose on public roads, with no more evidence of driving experience than a driver's license? (Which may not even originate in that country?)
The big difference which you seem to not be getting is that the moment these 'customers' pay money for their inclusion in the race, it's a commercial transaction, which then increases the responsibility on both the skipper of the vessel and the organisation, to mitigate risk. This has been emphasised in many courts, many times.
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Old 03-04-2016, 20:47   #92
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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And the crew.

At all times.
Well, Yes when I said, 'the boat' I meant the boat and the crew
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Old 03-04-2016, 21:48   #93
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Put an inexperienced driver on a powerful race car . . . . .
I would suggest this incident was more likely due to complacency than inexperience. The woman had gotten comfortable at sea and in these conditions, and that caused complacency. All of us with sea miles go thru cycles where we feel pretty good and proud about our skills, and then the sea reaches up and smacks us down and makes us humble again. Unfortunately that smack down killed her. It is a final zen level of seamanship to truly realize pride can kill you and know how to stay humble . . . Few achieve that IMHO.
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Old 03-04-2016, 22:08   #94
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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It is a final zen level of seamanship to truly realize pride can kill you and know how to stay humble . . . Few achieve that IMHO.
+1

That which does not kill us makes us strong, it also makes us humble.

When I was co-driving rally cars, I learned the value of 4 / 5 point seat belts, roll cages and helmets. I apply the same logic to tethers.
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Old 03-04-2016, 22:09   #95
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Wow, great post, Evans!

It is very easy to become over-confident, and as one ages, and one's body loses strength and coordination, hard to remember that one must compensate for that, and eventually, perhaps swallow the anchor before the sea swallows you.

Ann
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Old 03-04-2016, 22:53   #96
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Re: Clipper Race Fatality

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
The big difference which you seem to not be getting is that the moment these 'customers' pay money for their inclusion in the race, it's a commercial transaction, which then increases the responsibility on both the skipper of the vessel and the organisation, to mitigate risk. This has been emphasised in many courts, many times.
Yes, the legal duty of care is higher when you take money for a trip and force the purchesor to 'enjoy' it in an unsafe manner.
Its more than negligent imho.

That people find it acceptable because its a sailing boat race with a cute name staggers me.



Sent from a stupid phone that replaces words with weird stuff.
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Old 03-04-2016, 23:37   #97
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Re: Clipper Race Fatality

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I . Am. Not .writing.a reply.


Not.

It So exasperates me when people think themselves, their business, their sport, etc so much more important than people's lives.

These scum were taking money from customers and then forcing them to unsafe methods.

How I wish these bastards who've killed 2 on one boat get some time in the lock-up. But they won't because it's a sailing race called the Clipper, Whitbred, or Vinadloo, whatever.

How dare they!

Sent from a stupid phone that replaces words with weird stuff.
Agree 100%
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Old 04-04-2016, 02:34   #98
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

My condolences go to the family and friends particularly those sailing the boat.
Some very experienced sailors have been lost by the same moment of complacency
Sarah,had been sailing this boat for 7 months and would have been well versed with procedures.I notice the boat had extra cross lines on the lifelines forward to stop the
sails being washed over,and I understand why they do not have them further aft,
because they sit out with legs over the side .
It is not clear on the report whether she was washed out of the transom or under the side life lines,I dislike open transoms on sea going boats and I was reticent to put netting on the lifelines of my own boat but it does stop things dropping off.
A tragic accident good luck to the guys out there last time I looked they had 2500NM
still to do.
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:22   #99
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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I would suggest this incident was more likely due to complacency than inexperience. The woman had gotten comfortable at sea and in these conditions, and that caused complacency. All of us with sea miles go thru cycles where we feel pretty good and proud about our skills, and then the sea reaches up and smacks us down and makes us humble again. Unfortunately that smack down killed her. It is a final zen level of seamanship to truly realize pride can kill you and know how to stay humble . . . Few achieve that IMHO.
I agree with you regarding that to be important too and what you say has to do with most car accidents with inexperienced drivers not to happen on the first year but on the 2th or 3th when they feel that they know already what they are doing.

On really experienced drivers with 10 or 15 year's driving experience and hundred of thousands km experience the accidents are much less prone to happen.

All experienced ocean racers are humble regarding the sea, they know what can happen and all their training goes on the sense of performance and safety. They had already passed my many frightening experiences and value safety above all.

There is a wrong idea about sports that involve some danger, like racing offshore and the type of persons that do them (and their attitude). They are perceived as adventurers. They are not, they are Sportsmen at their sport.

An adventurer is somebody that enjoys and looks for dangerous and exciting experiences, the more and the newer the better, a racer, being it an offshore racer, a motorcycle racer or a car racer is somebody that races out of passion for racing sports, not for adventure sake. I never knew nobody so concerned about security and minimizing risks as top racers.

I have done motorcycle racing and new some top racers in my time. They were the ones that called for good sense and safety measures and the inexperienced pilots the ones that would brag about taking unnecessary risks.

All this is about the Clipper race to be much more an adventure than a true race. The ones that are doing it are not doing it as the climax of an amateur racing career (as experienced amateur racers) but as adventurers looking for a thrill (and that's why sailing experience is not required) and the problem here is that an adventurer does not look at security the same way a very experienced sportive racer does (almost in a professional way).

"The Clipper Round the World Yacht Race is the only event of its type. Anyone, even if they have never stepped on a boat before, can join the adventure."

https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/race/information

And regarding Sarah Young and her accomplishments, that we see refereed on the press, we do not see any past offshore racing sportive references but many references to many adventures she had experienced.
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:39   #100
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
I would suggest this incident was more likely due to complacency than inexperience. The woman had gotten comfortable at sea and in these conditions, and that caused complacency. All of us with sea miles go thru cycles where we feel pretty good and proud about our skills, and then the sea reaches up and smacks us down and makes us humble again. Unfortunately that smack down killed her. It is a final zen level of seamanship to truly realize pride can kill you and know how to stay humble . . . Few achieve that IMHO.
+1 000 000


Best post of this thread. Words to live by.
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Old 04-04-2016, 06:25   #101
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Experience takes a long time to gather in all sports,
but sailing has the extra element of the sea and wind and you must never underestimate its potential if you do,you do so at your peril .
Even clipped on it only takes a few minutes without air even if you don't bang your head.
One hand for the boat and one for yourself.
I find you hand on better if you are a bit scared.
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Old 04-04-2016, 06:55   #102
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
The woman had gotten comfortable at sea and in these conditions, and that caused complacency...It is a final zen level of seamanship to truly realize pride can kill you and know how to stay humble . . . Few achieve that IMHO.
√ Nice but...

pride is not equal to complacency.
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Old 04-04-2016, 07:13   #103
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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My first impression is there is a problem with vessel design for these races. "Big open cockpit" in high winds and seas sounds bad. However, upon more research I learned.

Since these races first began, over 4000 crew have sailed on these vessels.

This season 709 crew.

These two deaths represent the only two in the 20 year history of the event.

Source: Clipper Round the World Race crew dies after man overboard in the Pacific - Yachting World

I am not saying 2 is acceptable. Obviously the correct acceptable figure is 0. However, I hope this stays in prospective. Certainly the 4000 crew were exposed to other forms of accidents on the way to and from the events. There will be no clamor to ban automobiles, or motorbikes had two crew suffered an accident to or from the event.

And yes I do want a inquest. From what I can read there is no reason she should have been on deck and not clipped on. Further, what is the spacing on the life lines? With smaller crew members the current spacing may not be adequate especially around the cockpit.

Here is another story of someone sliding off the boat below the life lines:
SUCCESSFUL CREW OVERBOARD RECOVERIES REQUIRE PRACTICE, PRACTICE, AND PRACTICE — UKSailmakers

A big reason clipping on is mandatory anytime we are in high sea or winds aboard my vessel is I have no lifelines at all.
+1 Life is inherently dangerous. Without being there I can't even say that she made a mistake. It could just be one of those things. We enjoy a hobby, profession, and/or lifestyle that has inherent dangers. This is no difference that racing cars, flying, hiking, being in the military, or for that matter even just living in the huge cultural void of the suburbs.

As for the seventy seven or so minutes that it took them to find her, this really isn't surprising. The article talks of high winds and conditions that were less than ideal. At the speed these boats were likely moving, it is not surprising that it could be hard to slow the boat, turn it around, and find her. We as a group will continue to try to reduce the risk, but risk can NEVER be eliminated. So far, they've done a very good job or reducing the risks.
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:08   #104
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

I understand the people who sign up to go on this sort of event are given a fair bit of pre race training and would have every opportunity to see what they are letting themselves in for. Personally, you would never get me on any boat where racing took priority over crew safety, but that's just me? The fact is that loads of people get a big kick out of racing so we get what I would consider fundamentally unsafe yacht designs where seaworthiness is not the top priority, and what about lionising people who sail single handed so are absolutely incapable of keeping a lookout at all times? Sometimes in boats designed so close to the limits that the keels drop off?

That's the way some people are. I wouldn't join them but In my opinion they are absolutely entitled to choose their own poison. It would be a dull world without them, and every now and then, one of them is going to get caught out and pay the price. We can surely just pause for a moment and pay some respect before moving on?

We can think about some practical issues around being ALWAYS clipped on, some obvious things like needing to wear 2 lifelines, having U bolts always in arms reach of each other, or at least jack stays in the cockpit, not getting tangled up in crew mates lifelines, netting on the guardrails, etc, etc. obvious solutions maybe but not always so easy in practical reality. I have no experience on anything bigger than 40 ft but the cockpits on those 70 footers look huge to me. How do you stay clipped on at all times when moving around one of them with a full crew at sea?

Also, I wish someone would make a one man liferaft for instant MOB deployment, like they give out to fighter pilots with their ejection package. If you manage to climb into one of those, so only your face is exposed, you are bound to last a lot longer in cold seas.
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:14   #105
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Exactly. You have your answer.

You are about to sail way below a good mono hull BUT so much faster that you still make it to the destination before them. If this counts to you.

And yes one can sail faster when the angle is wider, also in a mono monkey. If one accepts being tossed about.

IMHO her performance, even without keels, is no problem. Look at other features that may count to you.

I love tris and so if I were to buy one it would be something like Rayon Vert.

One of them is on the market here. I think around 140 prior to cruising modifications. A toy for a boy.

b.
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