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Old 03-04-2016, 15:16   #61
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

First of all I want to give my condolences to her family and friends and the remaining crew. The whole event in my opinion is one of those happenings that for the wise will act as a serious wake up call concerning all things relating to safety on board a boat.

One observation I would like to make is that this crew and many crews do man overboard recovery exercises. Some theoretical and others practical with actual dropping a crew member in the drink and then coming about to recover.

I would ask how many of these exercises involve drilling into the crew not to become a man overboard in the first place? Yes it is all well and good to know how to collect a man overboard but I question how many instructors emphatically emphasize the need for precautions such as being clipped in to avoid becoming a man overboard in the first place.

I thought I was being paranoid when at the boat show">Miami boat show I spent a lot of time checking out the various types of immersion suites. I also am planning on using full netting around the boat. As they say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Forgive me for not being totally abreast of this story but can someone please let me know what happened with the other death on board this boat?

Another question is what moral culpability lays with the skipper? I say moral because being responsible many times goes beyond what is required by law to what is the moral right thing in a given situation. So I ask, if it were a car with children and you as the adult failed to make sure the children had their seat belts on, an accident happened and a child was thrown out the window and killed, wouldn't there be a moral responsibility in this situation on the adult in this circumstance? So I ask, who was the adult on board? Who was the captain who has the ultimate responsibility for the crew? Did he/she tell the novices (children as per sailing experience) in his/her care to buckle up at all times and especially in a storm? Yes I think there is need of an inquest and yes I think serious questions should be asked of the captain. And this should be a lesson for all captains. When you have "children" (inexperienced adults) on board you have the same moral responsibility as that driver of a car who has just picked up a car full of local kids from the soccer match.

Finally, it is a smart person who learns from another persons mistakes. And yes it is a mistake not to be tethered especially during a storm. And I would say a demonstrative wake up call for all captains to take life preservation far more seriously.
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Old 03-04-2016, 15:37   #62
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Armchair or not. I think it right for us here to begin asking the tough questions.

It is the answers to these questions that frequently lead to safer conditions in the future.

It is not acceptable in my book to simply say s.... happens.

One item I see no one mention is what the vessel was doing at the time. This was a small craft. It was racing in 40 knot winds.

It was racing in high wind and waves despite having little protection or no protection in the cockpit and a low freeboard.

Most here have no experience in 40 knot winds. I have crossed the Pacific. I have sailed almost 30 years. I own and live aboard a larger vessel. Yet, I have zero experience in winds this high.

How tired was the crew?

At this point what should the vessel been doing?

If life of crew was first priority, and racing second, what should it have been doing and where should the crew, especially tired inexperienced crew, have been?
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Old 03-04-2016, 15:39   #63
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
First of all I want to give my condolences to her family and friends and the remaining crew. The whole event in my opinion is one of those happenings that for the wise will act as a serious wake up call concerning all things relating to safety on board a boat.

One observation I would like to make is that this crew and many crews do man overboard recovery exercises. Some theoretical and others practical with actual dropping a crew member in the drink and then coming about to recover.

I would ask how many of these exercises involve drilling into the crew not to become a man overboard in the first place? Yes it is all well and good to know how to collect a man overboard but I question how many instructors emphatically emphasize the need for precautions such as being clipped in to avoid becoming a man overboard in the first place.

I thought I was being paranoid when at the Miami boat show I spent a lot of time checking out the various types of immersion suites. I also am planning on using full netting around the boat. As they say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Forgive me for not being totally abreast of this story but can someone please let me know what happened with the other death on board this boat?

Another question is what moral culpability lays with the skipper? I say moral because being responsible many times goes beyond what is required by law to what is the moral right thing in a given situation. So I ask, if it were a car with children and you as the adult failed to make sure the children had their seat belts on, an accident happened and a child was thrown out the window and killed, wouldn't there be a moral responsibility in this situation on the adult in this circumstance? So I ask, who was the adult on board? Who was the captain who has the ultimate responsibility for the crew? Did he/she tell the novices (children as per sailing experience) in his/her care to buckle up at all times and especially in a storm? Yes I think there is need of an inquest and yes I think serious questions should be asked of the captain. And this should be a lesson for all captains. When you have "children" (inexperienced adults) on board you have the same moral responsibility as that driver of a car who has just picked up a car full of local kids from the soccer match.

Finally, it is a smart person who learns from another persons mistakes. And yes it is a mistake not to be tethered especially during a storm. And I would say a demonstrative wake up call for all captains to take life preservation far more seriously.
The other chap died when he was hit with boom in the head. I believe it killed him outright.
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Old 03-04-2016, 15:50   #64
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Well, from a purely armchair perspective, I'm agreeing with Polux. And after two deaths I doubt very much we will see the same lapse criteria for entrants occuring. The entrance requirements run in the face of the criticism and recommendations from a number of inquests in races, the S2H 1998 to name an extreemly relevant inquest.

There is a common saying around lapsed events and procedures, there will be changes when someone dies or an organisation get's sued. In this case an inexperienced lady has died.

And I don't think it's sensible to call her 'experienced' based on the 20 000 miles she's accomplisehd in the same boat in the same race. It's perhaps accurate to say she was experienced 'in this race', which pretty much means nothing. Though the attached BBC article says she was an experienced yachtsman.

And those posters suggesting the fault lay with her for not clipping on, doesn't wash. The skipper is responsible on the boat and the organisers are responsible for the boats 'and' the overall event. This has been found in one court after another.

I suspect we will see some changes occur after this one.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/sailing/35949645
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Old 03-04-2016, 15:55   #65
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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The other chap died when he was hit with boom in the head. I believe it killed him outright.
Thanks Rustic Charm. So sad.
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Old 03-04-2016, 16:00   #66
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

I agree, the most important thing is speculation based on incomplete facts.
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Old 03-04-2016, 16:40   #67
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Re: Clipper Race Fatality

R


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Old 03-04-2016, 16:40   #68
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Same race two years ago - almost to the day.





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Old 03-04-2016, 16:41   #69
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Here is text from an article promoting the race:

This week calls on Liverpool Residents to take on the 40,000 mile challenge of a lifetime in the next edition of the Clipper Round The World Yacht Race.


The race is for seasoned sailors and novices alike, as you will hear when you attend the free talk hosted at.....

Notice in the photo this vessel is already reefed, it is already heeled at a severe angle, the deck is filled full of crew that would entangle each other in lines used to clip themselves on, no one in the photo appears clipped on, the cockpit is totally open.
Further the lower lee deck area is already right near the waterline and any moderate wave in these apparently mild conditions would sweep someone off the deck.

Clipper Round The World Yacht Race - Albert Dock

I will admit I am prejudiced with my center cockpit protected on three sides as well as being in a cruising trimaran 40 feet wide which doesn't heel like this.
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Old 03-04-2016, 17:10   #70
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
And I don't think it's sensible to call her 'experienced' based on the 20 000 miles she's accomplisehd in the same boat in the same race. It's perhaps accurate to say she was experienced 'in this race', which pretty much means nothing. Though the attached BBC article says she was an experienced yachtsman.
What a very strange comment. Having 20,000 miles experience that particular boat "means nothing"?

Would 20,000 miles in a completely different boat somehow be more relevant? Or maybe 20,000 miles in a car would be better? (or perhaps 20,000 words on a keyboard...)

How on earth do you work out that 20,000 miles on one boat "means nothing"?
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Old 03-04-2016, 17:21   #71
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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What a very strange comment. Having 20,000 miles experience that particular boat "means nothing"?

Would 20,000 miles in a completely different boat somehow be more relevant? Or maybe 20,000 miles in a car would be better? (or perhaps 20,000 words on a keyboard...)

How on earth do you work out that 20,000 miles on one boat "means nothing"?
Don't be so god damn pedantic obviously it means 'something'. I was very clearly referring to the context of overall experience as a sailor in relation to what we were talking about. context matters

But, okay, I should have been more careful with my wording.
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Old 03-04-2016, 17:22   #72
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

I want to pick out more text from that race promotion:

Leading the event at Albert Dock on Thursday will be Clipper Race Recruiter, Della Parsons, who encourages anyone to join who is looking to; “push their limits and test the boundaries of what they thought they were capable of achieving.”

Her words capture the spirit of this unique race, as it is the only event where anyone from all walks of life and regardless of previous experience, can race around the world.
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Old 03-04-2016, 17:31   #73
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Don't be so god damn pedantic obviously it means 'something'. I was very clearly referring to the context of overall experience as a sailor in relation to what we were talking about. context matters

But, okay, I should have been more careful with my wording.
I don't see how you could describe a sailor with 20,000 miles in that boat as being anything other than experienced. In that boat.

And IMO, experience, no matter how much, in any other boat would be far less relevant.
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Old 03-04-2016, 17:46   #74
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

This most unfortunate accident did not occur during a storm, it was "only" a gale, and on a boat capable of handling the existing conditions. On the rare occasions we've been in over 45's, I have never clipped on in the cockpit. You really do need to have freedom of movement.

There's already too much nanny-stateing happening in the world. Please, let's not think in terms of more regulation. Individuals need to inform themselves about the risks of their activities, it's part of individuals taking responsibility for themselves.

I have to agree that with the bits Polux posted, the marketing guys seem to have won over the "sensible" ones for promoting the race. But still, I would not advocate for them to change what they are doing.

There is a conflict between prolonging life and maintaining quality of life, and I think most people realize this. If your personality requires risk taking, then you are generally likely to accept those risks.

Therefore, even though I don't like the obviously "rah rah" tone of their advertising, I disagree that we should expect the organizers to change what they're doing. They're trying to make a living, and it is no secret that deaths occur doing this activity, a fact that is true for racing various vehicles other than vessels, as well.

Who is going to have some soul searching to do is that skipper. Perhaps he needs to be more protective of the less experienced crew members. And I'd also say that experienced ex-racers at the high level of the sport may have forgotten how much they didn't know. It's not easy to herd independent cats, and I bet Sarah was fit, and independent.

I am so glad that burial at sea was provided for. I don't know if she had it in her will, but I have that written down for Jim, and it's agreed between us.

Condolences to the team, other friends, and family members, this is a tough time, for sure.

RIP

Ann
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Old 03-04-2016, 18:23   #75
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Well, from a purely armchair perspective, I'm agreeing with Polux. And after two deaths I doubt very much we will see the same lapse criteria for entrants occuring. The entrance requirements run in the face of the criticism and recommendations from a number of inquests in races, the S2H 1998 to name an extreemly relevant inquest.

There is a common saying around lapsed events and procedures, there will be changes when someone dies or an organisation get's sued. In this case an inexperienced lady has died.

And I don't think it's sensible to call her 'experienced' based on the 20 000 miles she's accomplisehd in the same boat in the same race. It's perhaps accurate to say she was experienced 'in this race', which pretty much means nothing. Though the attached BBC article says she was an experienced yachtsman.

And those posters suggesting the fault lay with her for not clipping on, doesn't wash. The skipper is responsible on the boat and the organisers are responsible for the boats 'and' the overall event. This has been found in one court after another.

I suspect we will see some changes occur after this one.

Clipper Race death: Sarah Young buried at sea - BBC Sport
I don't think it is fair to put the blame on the skipper. He was on an unusual situation not having as crew an experienced professional racing team, not even racing top amateurs but mostly inexperienced sailors that he had to keep an eye on and on stressful situations, with 40k wind on a storm, that can be too much to ask or even impossible.

Also most of these "crews" are mostly composed by rich guys that are in it to feel what a real racing sailor feels, they paid well for the experience and rich guys are not used to follow strict orders from nobody. Some problems on that sector would to be expected at least in some cases, with the skipper.

One can be a good skipper with a racing crew were everybody knows what to do and everybody respect him and have problems to be strictly obeyed by an amateur inexperienced crew of people with big egos.

Regarding the experience that that crew had already I don't think they had got many 40k gales and in what regards that they are not probably experienced at least in what regards sailing it on a fast racing boat where the speed is big and the forces huge.

Maybe I am more sensible to the strangeness of putting a bunch of amateurs that according to the needed requirements, can even not have any sailing experience, on a big ocean racing boat and say they are a racing crew, under the command of a experienced skipper and prepared to do a circumnavigation race.

During my live I had made some sports at a reasonable level and I know very well what are the level of a top sportive, a good amateur a beginner or somebody that does not know nothing about the sport.

Sailing was not one of the sports I have done at a reasonable level, in that case it was more of an hobby, but I have followed sailing as a sport with interest for many years, particularly offshore racing and I know the time and experience that is needed to form an offshore racer of a 70ft sailboat and that is most time of a life, starting with dinghies, smaller offshore racers and only then bigger racers.

I do also have a considerable experience while a sailor and I do know that there is a huge difference between somebody that never sailed, a beginner with some sailing, a sailor with some experience and a very experienced sailor and the time that is required to pass from 0 to a very experienced sailor and I know also that a 70ft offshore racer, like the clipper, should have not only a crew of experienced sailors but a crew of experienced racing sailors, that is a quite different thing.

Telling rich people, that may never have sailed, that it is alright to come and have an experience racing a 70ft racer around the globe, that they don't need to have any experience in what regards sailing, is in my opinion an irresponsible and dangerous act one that shouldn't be allowed.
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