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Old 03-04-2016, 06:28   #46
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pirate Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Its all to easy to armchair critique.. however most know that the 'Text Book' does not rule reality..
I'll lay odds that many who claim they Always clip on often do not.. look at most videos of boats racing or cruising and see how many are clipped on..
Not many.. its slows them down and gets in the way..
You pay your money and take your chance.. **** Happens.. and all the Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda does not alter that fact..
Tethers break, clips fail... then would it be.. she stuffed up buying the wrong make..??
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Old 03-04-2016, 06:32   #47
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Re: Clipper Race Fatality

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My conclusion is that I have no idea if being "inexperienced" caused her death. She died because she wasn't clipped in, just like many experienced sailors have died because they were not clipped. Asserting that it was inexperienced that kill her assumes that we know for sure that an experienced sailor would have been clipped in that same circumstance, which we don't know. Experienced sailors move on the cockpit un clipped all the time. And they also get swept overboard and die. This may have been an accident that may have happened to the most experienced of sailors. I just think that blaming this tragedy just on her lack of experience is simplistic. Clearly you disagree and that's fine. But I 100% agree that she would be alive if she had been clipped in.

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No one has asserted she died because she was 'inexperienced'! Settle down
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Old 03-04-2016, 07:13   #48
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Accidents don't just happen, there is always, 'always' a cause, that can be mitigated. Often with hindsight, but accidents don't just happen.
Absolutely. I recommend spending some time reading MAIB reports, and the reports from your own country. I read the Transport Canada reports.
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Old 03-04-2016, 08:10   #49
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Theres no guarantee that being clipped in would have saved her. Clips snap. Tether's snap. People slip out or are pulled out from their harnesses. Heads bump.
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Old 03-04-2016, 11:03   #50
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Theres no guarantee that being clipped in would have saved her. Clips snap. Tether's snap. People slip out or are pulled out from their harnesses. Heads bump.
This is better and better.... so after being alright to put absolutely inexperienced people on a racing sailboat and "on a record breaking 40,000 nautical mile race around the world", putting them in situations they are not prepared for because what is needed for that is only a "thirst for adventure into the unknown"....

and after the conclusion that it is indifferent, in what regards the risks to be thrown overboard while racing in bad weather, to be a very experienced professional racer or an inexperienced sailor, since they all can be swept overboard.......

we have the final conclusion that it is indifferent for safety to be clipped to a boat because clips snap because one can be pulled out of the harness and heads bump.

Nobody seems to strange that a potentially completely inexperienced crew, without knowing nothing about sailing, after some short training, can be put aboard a 70ft racing boat as crew to do a circumnavigation race.

Nobody finds strange that they advertise that no sailing experience is needed for doing that:
"This is one of the biggest challenges of the natural world and an endurance test like no other. With no previous sailing experience necessary, it’s a record breaking 40,000 nautical mile race around the world on a 70-foot ocean racing yacht.".

Nobody find strange that two members of the crew died on that boat during that circumnavigation race in sailing accidents.

Well, it seems that it is only me that don't find normal or acceptable all that

I don't know if the sailor that died recently had any considerable experience as an offshore sailor but I do know she was an adventuress and I do know that in her curriculum you can read all sorts of adventurous things but nothing related with sailing, except the she wished to add to her list of adventures this particular adventure that did not require sailing experience but only a
"thirst for adventure into the unknown".

Could she be alive if she was a very experienced offshore racing sailor? Probably yes. Could she be alive if she was clipped to the boat? Probably yes.

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Old 03-04-2016, 11:37   #51
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Nobody seems to strange that a potentially completely inexperienced crew, without knowing nothing about sailing, after some short training, can be put aboard a 70ft racing boat.

[/COLOR][/COLOR]
No one put them on the boat. They boarded willingly.
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Old 03-04-2016, 12:07   #52
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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No one put them on the boat. They boarded willingly.
God point. My bad English. I meant to say allowed, encouraged to, as a normal thing.
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Old 03-04-2016, 12:31   #53
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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God point. My bad English. I meant to say allowed, encouraged to, as a normal thing.
The world is full of people making choices and taking responsibility for their choices.

Allowed? It would take an authority to disallow someone from doing something.

Encouraged? Maybe she was encouraged to go. Maybe she was discouraged to go. In the end it was her decision.
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Old 03-04-2016, 12:46   #54
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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The world is full of people making choices and taking responsibility for their choices.

Allowed? It would take an authority to disallow someone from doing something.

Encouraged? Maybe she was encouraged to go. Maybe she was discouraged to go. In the end it was her decision.
When someone makes this type of advertise:
"This is one of the biggest challenges of the natural world and an endurance test like no other. With no previous sailing experience necessary, it’s a record breaking 40,000 nautical mile race around the world on a 70-foot ocean racing yacht All that is asked of participants is a good level of fitness, an age over 18 - and a thirst for adventure into the unknown."

It is supposed that they know what they are talking about and that it is true that sailing experience is not necessary to race safely a 70ft racing yacht on a circumnavigation record breaking race, as they describe it.

In what concerns me this is misleading information that can have a dangerous outcome. I don't know if it is allowed to make misleading statements regarding promoting an activity that later result on mortal accidents, I guess it will depend on the country as well as if an investigation will be launched and if criminal charges will be issued.
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Old 03-04-2016, 12:53   #55
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

"...one of the biggest challenges of the natural world," should have pretty much
summed it up for anyone who might have thought it wasn't going to be challenging.

They certainly didn't mislead anyone with that bombshell.
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Old 03-04-2016, 12:57   #56
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pirate Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

She had already covered 20,000 miles hard sailing on the same boat.. would another 2,000 have made her experienced.. or 5,000 more..
How many miles does one have to do to be 'Experienced'.??
I know folk who consider themselves 'experienced' after just 5,000.. over 5 years..
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Old 03-04-2016, 13:01   #57
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

You are jumping from A to Z with insuffient information to make that jump. As far as you know, both the organization and the skipper gave incredibly detailed safety presentations, including practical training. As far as you know, clipping in when the cockpit was both required and followed up on every time someone came up from below. As far as you know, this woman decided on her own to flout that requirement "just for a minute." Still dying to assign liability to the organization?

I definitely agree that two deaths on one boat obviously merits a thorough and deep investigation into the onboard operating procedures and training. Until the results of the investigation are known, no one knows enough to assign liability for this poor woman's death to any particular party or parties.

Based on the press release, she had 20,000 miles of time onboard before her death. If that is accurate then that is more offshore miles that many people who stable themselves as experts.
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Old 03-04-2016, 13:10   #58
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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"...one of the biggest challenges of the natural world," should have pretty much
summed it up for anyone who might have thought it wasn't going to be challenging.

They certainly didn't mislead anyone with that bombshell.
It is not the challenge in itself but saying that to do that is not required previous sailing experience.

To propose big challenges has nothing wrong, the misinformation regarding the skills needed to accomplish them safely is.

Big challenges are easy to find, for instance imagine that someone was making publicity and offer at accessible prices on a full program to race a racing motorcycle on the Paris Dakar stating that previous motorcycle riding experience was not needed? Just some (included) lessons would be enough.

Or a full program for the Monte Carlo Rally with a racing car stating that previous driving experience was not needed and that they would teach all that was necessary in some weeks?
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Old 03-04-2016, 14:28   #59
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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...................

Im also a little surprised that the family can authorise a buriel at sea?

If she was Australian the family could request but wouldnt be able to authorise this. Both an autopsy and an inquest would be required.


........
An interesting thread can be found here...
Burial at sea - Ships Nostalgia

I think this yacht would have had full UK registration.
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Old 03-04-2016, 14:53   #60
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

You know, Polux, I have to say after reading most of your posts on this forum, you are really really wearing me out with your self posturing and poor opinions. I think it's time for the block button. Good luck to you.
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