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Old 02-04-2016, 16:20   #31
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pirate Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

She could have been stunned when the first wave knocked her back or just gasping for breath when the second hit and got a nose full.. this would have started an automatic rapid choke/inhale sequence which its unlikely she'd have brought under control in time once over.. also.. once the lifejacket inflated it would have had her almost certainly swung face into the seas.. do not know if they were equipped with the sort that have a hood that one can pull over ones face to prevent waves bursting up ones nose... Speculation only but that's all we have.. sadly.
Body surfing down Cornwall way in after storm sea's during my youth introduced me to how easily a nose full when losing control can easily overwhelm one in tumbling water.. shock can and does kill.
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Old 02-04-2016, 16:21   #32
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Two deaths on the same boat? I see this as a big issue.
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Old 02-04-2016, 16:25   #33
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
My first impression is there is a problem with vessel design for these races. "Big open cockpit" in high winds and seas sounds bad. However, upon more research I learned.

Since these races first began, over 4000 crew have sailed on these vessels.

This season 709 crew.

These two deaths represent the only two in the 20 year history of the event.

Source: Clipper Round the World Race crew dies after man overboard in the Pacific - Yachting World

I am not saying 2 is acceptable. Obviously the correct acceptable figure is 0. However, I hope this stays in prospective. Certainly the 4000 crew were exposed to other forms of accidents on the way to and from the events. There will be no clamor to ban automobiles, or motorbikes had two crew suffered an accident to or from the event.

And yes I do want a inquest. From what I can read there is no reason she should have been on deck and not clipped on. Further, what is the spacing on the life lines? With smaller crew members the current spacing may not be adequate especially around the cockpit.

Here is another story of someone sliding off the boat below the life lines:
SUCCESSFUL CREW OVERBOARD RECOVERIES REQUIRE PRACTICE, PRACTICE, AND PRACTICE — UKSailmakers

A big reason clipping on is mandatory anytime we are in high sea or winds aboard my vessel is I have no lifelines at all.
Nothing wrong with the boat is just similar to the ones that are used to do this type of races at top levell without casualties, a detuned heavier and easier to sail sailboat.

I believe the problem is with the crew. That is a business and they accept everybody it has the money to pay for the experience. No previous racing experience needed, not even the previous sailing experience is checked.

An ocean race boat, even if detuned, is an ocean racing boat and they are racing, even if not at high level and while racing a boat goes faster than a typical cruiser and it is more demanding to sail.

It was logical that a given level of expertise would be required from the crew to sail extensivelly offshore a boat like this but it is not the case. It seems to me that these two deaths are going to change that.
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Old 02-04-2016, 16:26   #34
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Sounds like the crew maybe did well to get her back on board at all in those conditions. Terrifying for them. Very sad news. Condolences to her family. Lessons to be learned no doubt as always but accidents will still happen. RIP, Sarah Young.
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Old 02-04-2016, 16:29   #35
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
She could have been stunned when the first wave knocked her back or just gasping for breath when the second hit and got a nose full.. this would have started an automatic rapid choke/inhale sequence which its unlikely she'd have brought under control in time once over.. also.. once the lifejacket inflated it would have had her almost certainly swung face into the seas.. do not know if they were equipped with the sort that have a hood that one can pull over ones face to prevent waves bursting up ones nose... Speculation only but that's all we have.. sadly.
Body surfing down Cornwall way in after storm sea's during my youth introduced me to how easily a nose full when losing control can easily overwhelm one in tumbling water.. shock can and does kill.
yep 100% with you Boaty. And from forum after forum, I just don't think this is well understood by many even experienced sailors. When I was doing a Competent Crew course in Sydney 7 years ago, i was realy surprised to hear the instructor on that course had little comprehension of this. But then again he misread a cradinal mark up in Mcquarie Lakes which all us 'students' raised as wrong and if when other boats in our view went another way, he was too proud and embarrassed no doubt to admit to us that he was wrong. what a waste of money that four days was.
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Old 02-04-2016, 16:32   #36
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Clivevon View Post
Sounds like the crew maybe did well to get her back on board at all in those conditions. Terrifying for them. Very sad news. Condolences to her family. Lessons to be learned no doubt as always but accidents will still happen. RIP, Sarah Young.
Accidents don't just happen, there is always, 'always' a cause, that can be mitigated. Often with hindsight, but accidents don't just happen.
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Old 02-04-2016, 16:37   #37
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Nothing wrong with the boat is just similar to the ones that are used to do this type of races at top levell without casualties, a detuned heavier and easier to sail sailboat.

I believe the problem is with the crew. That is a business and they accept everybody it has the money to pay for the experience. No previous racing experience needed, not even the previous sailing experience is checked.

An ocean race boat, even if detuned, is an ocean racing boat and they are racing, even if not at high level and while racing a boat goes faster than a typical cruiser and it is more demanding to sail.

It was logical that a given level of expertise would be required from the crew to sail extensivelly offshore a boat like this but it is not the case. It seems to me that these two deaths are going to change that.
well, if that's the case Polux, then it's a problem with the organisers. Im really surprised if this is the case. I would have thought all organisers of an organised event would have learnt the mistakes of other organisations and having crew on board with 'no' experience is just silly. Of course with this particular young lady she was experienced i think.
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Old 02-04-2016, 17:24   #38
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Re: Clipper Race Fatality

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Originally Posted by hamburking View Post
According to the statement, she went over at 11:27 UTC and recovered at 12:44 UTC. That would be 77 minutes in the water. Thats a long time.
The crew should be commended for their efforts...I'm sure it was a time of sheer hell for them all.

Rest In Peace Sarah Young.
I'll second this message.
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Old 02-04-2016, 18:00   #39
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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well, if that's the case Polux, then it's a problem with the organisers. Im really surprised if this is the case. I would have thought all organisers of an organised event would have learnt the mistakes of other organisations and having crew on board with 'no' experience is just silly. Of course with this particular young lady she was experienced i think.
It is a fact that they don't demand any particular sailing experience for entering the race. I doubt very much she had a considerable experience as a sailor, she liked adventure and took this as another adventure having done previously other types of adventures:

"Prior to the Clipper Race she had done other expeditions including spending a year in Sabah, northern Borneo, working for Raleigh Malaysia.

She had also led teams in Zambia, Botswana and Namibia, had been mountaineering in Nepal and did a world-first 18 day trek down the Skeleton Coast unsupported.

Miss Young had also run a marathon and was a Divemaster....

The Clipper Race had been an ambition of hers for some years and she said celebrating her 40th birthday just before setting sail from London was the perfect way to start her adventure."


British female competitor killed during Clipper round-the-world yacht race is second Brit to die on same boat - Mirror Online

This is what they ask as requirements for the crew:
"This is one of the biggest challenges of the natural world and an endurance test like no other. With no previous sailing experience necessary, it’s a record breaking 40,000 nautical mile race around the world on a 70-foot ocean racing yacht. All that is asked of participants is a good level of fitness, an age over 18 - and a thirst for adventure into the unknown."
https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com...about-the-race

Sure, she had done already many thousands of miles on that boat but the culture of safety at sea is something that is not learned fast in fact is something that is learned slowly and I am surprised that the skipper of the boat had not demanded her to use a harness and a line on conditions that could be dangerous and I am not the only one to be surprised:

"Earlier, Knox-Johnston..said: "One of the things we really focus on in Clipper with the four weeks' training is safety - that is the primary consideration, the one thing we drum into all crew.
"Taking the safety precautions, we remind them of the man overboard procedures, they practise it and practise it so they get good at it, but the fact of the matter is people have a harness and don't clip on they are endangering themselves, and I am afraid that is what has happened on this occasion.
"You can tell them to harness on, and we do the whole time, but if they haven't done it I'm afraid this is what can happen."


Tributes pour in for late sailor Sarah Young - RT‰ Sport

Maybe the skipper had demanded her to be clipped to the boat and was ignored, we don't know.
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Old 02-04-2016, 19:10   #40
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Maybe the skipper had demanded her to be clipped to the boat and was ignored, we don't know.
She was an experienced mountaineer. She knew the importance. She was also a dive master and knew about safety in the water. Something must have happened during the ejection. Maybe, maybe, maybe is for wanna-bes
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Old 03-04-2016, 04:29   #41
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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She was an experienced mountaineer. She knew the importance. She was also a dive master and knew about safety in the water. Something must have happened during the ejection. Maybe, maybe, maybe is for wanna-bes
Maybe is for possibilities. The facts are that she was not clipped to the boat and she should be on those conditions.

Facts are that an experience mountaineer or a dive master is not the same as an experienced sailor and facts are that they accept for sailing on a fast demanding boat on very demanding conditions people that have not any sailing experience.
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Old 03-04-2016, 05:28   #42
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Re: Clipper Race Fatality

I think this assertion that she died because she was inexperienced implies that this would never happen to experienced sailors. Yet this ignores the fact that this happens to experienced sailors more often than we would like to admit. The clipper race with their amateur crews managed to avoid this type of accident for a lot longer than the Volvo race. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/19/sp...ling.html?_r=0


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Old 03-04-2016, 06:00   #43
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Re: Clipper Race Fatality

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I think this assertion that she died because she was inexperienced implies that this would never happen to experienced sailors. Yet this ignores the fact that this happens to experienced sailors more often than we would like to admit. The clipper race with their amateur crews managed to avoid this type of accident for a lot longer than the Volvo race. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/19/sp...ling.html?_r=0
...
So your conclusion is that being a completely inexperienced sailor or a professional with a vast sailing experience the chances of being thrown overboard are the same?

Kind of not making any sense to me as making no sense comparing the conditions that top racing sailors experience with the conditions that inexperienced amateurish racing sailors looking for a thrill experience, starting with the speed both boats are designed to sail at.

Regarding that if I am not mistaken all or almost all 70ft clippers were beaten on the Sydney Hobart by a 43f production cruiser racer and the full clipper fleet was racing there.
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Old 03-04-2016, 06:14   #44
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamburking View Post
According to the statement, she went over at 11:27 UTC and recovered at 12:44 UTC. That would be 77 minutes in the water. Thats a long time.
The crew should be commended for their efforts...I'm sure it was a time of sheer hell for them all.

Rest In Peace Sarah Young.
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Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
I'll second this message.
Thirded....

I can only imagine the roller coaster for the crew... I'd likely rather be Sara than have been a member of the crew...
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Old 03-04-2016, 06:27   #45
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Re: Clipper Race Fatality

My conclusion is that I have no idea if being "inexperienced" caused her death. She died because she wasn't clipped in, just like many experienced sailors have died because they were not clipped. Asserting that it was inexperienced that kill her assumes that we know for sure that an experienced sailor would have been clipped in that same circumstance, which we don't know. Experienced sailors move on the cockpit un clipped all the time. And they also get swept overboard and die. This may have been an accident that may have happened to the most experienced of sailors. I just think that blaming this tragedy just on her lack of experience is simplistic. Clearly you disagree and that's fine. But I 100% agree that she would be alive if she had been clipped in.


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