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Old 06-04-2016, 15:01   #226
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I use different tethers, one when I am just trying to have some rest on the cockpit, the same one that I use on the steering wheel and a different shorter one with two clips to go forward..
I do the same thing and have a line very similar to the one mentioned by Jackdale.
The life lines on the deck are tightened to their maximum and the lines should not move up more that 5 or 8cm.
There are life lines in the cockpit too plus a clip and a very short line at the steering wheel.
There are clipping points around the mast and close the boom for when taking reefs plus a few other all over the boat.

The most basic rules we sticK to are:
- No one alone in the cockpit should be un-clipped.
- People at the steering wheel must be clipped on.
- Sailing by night means mandatory clipping.
- Moving on the deck should be done clipped and with at least one person in the cockpit taking care and over-seeing the person on deck.
- More than 20 knots of wind (windward) with rough seas or the boat heeling means clipping.
- Deck-vests have EPIRB and AIS for blue sea sailing.

It may look like belt and braces but "the only way to sail is to stay on the boat".
I know Darren Ladd very well, he used to be one of my crew for our 2011 and 2012 transatlantic trip.
He is a very careful and seasoned sailor, hence I have been totally taken aback and horrified by what did happen to the two people he "lost" during this race.

In my view the first responsibility of a skipper is to bring everybody back. This si true whatever happen, and sometime time something may happen that you have no real control upon.
People may be non compliant or the weather can be very bad or you may just lack luck or hit a floating container (or a whale) and then you feel you should have done thing differently and it kills you. But realistically it is impossible to have everything under control.
That's part of the skipper life and I know one who circled the world single-hande via the Horn and the Bering strait and who told me he could crew for some one (me in that case) but would never take a crew as he would not want to be responsible for what can happen to that guy and I can understand that.

The Clipper Race is something special and the crew as well as the skippers are carefully selected and trained, even if most of them never did any significant blue sea sailing before, except the skipper. The risk is part of the 'game'. It has to be accepted, recognized, managed and minimized.
Once you have done that, the rest in out of your hands and that's true for any skipper who takes people on board.

Marc on S/Y Hanami II
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Old 06-04-2016, 16:02   #227
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by hanami2 View Post
. . .
The life lines on the deck are tightened to their maximum and the lines should not move up more that 5 or 8cm.. . .
Have you calculated the SWL of the jackstays when "tightened to their maximum"?

You might be surprised how it falls off a cliff, as you tighten them up. Really tight jacklines will break if someone falls while attached to them.

Check this out:

Vector Forces | ropebook

At 175 degrees, the force on the jackline exerted by the tether is magnified by 11.5x. So a 100kg man just hanging from the jackline (we're leaving aside the snatch load if he falls) will exert a force of more than a ton at each end. With snatch loads, he'll break it.

That's a 2.5 degree angle, so 22cm at the middle of a 10 meter jackline.

Your 8 cm deflection would be 0.9% -- yow! This is beyond the range of my calculator, and I am too lazy tonight to do the trig, but a rough guess would be that a 100kg man would exert a force on the ends of the jacklines of more than 10 tons, most likely breaking the lines, and again, that's without snatch loads.

So it's clearly a very bad idea to tighten up your jacklines like that, and tight jacklines will not solve the fundamental geometrical problem of keeping yourself tethered on board.
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Old 06-04-2016, 16:38   #228
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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So you are saying you can go all the way forward along the leeward side deck, while clipped on to the windward side? Across the cabin top? I'm sorry but this is not possible. ....
Do as you please but if you can go overboard while clipped you should revise your system because if you go overboard and hang there outside the boat with a short crew you are dead.

Instead of saying that is not possible you should be trying to understand how it is done, that obviously depend on each boat deck layout. Basically you should have a way to pass the sprayhood area and then have two lines, one on each side that run over the cabin, where you clip yourself, then you unclip the other line, the one that allow you to reach there (two clips tether). You don't go over the cabin, you go over deck, near the lifelines, with the tether completely stretched and pulling your weight on the jack line (through the tether), that are over the cabin, the one on that side of the boat.

The lines over the cabin should be two and would go till forward the mast, one on each side and hanging from those lines you should reach the life lines, but not be able to pass over them.

It is simple, lots of time to study your boat to see where fixation points should be mounted to have jack lines that allow you to reach everywhere without the tether allowing you to fall overboard.

After a careful study have the fixation points installed (they need metal plaques on the inside), rig the lines, adjust the tether and you will have a safe boat. A basic exercise of architecture. It was the first thing I had done after having bought my boat.
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Old 06-04-2016, 16:49   #229
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Do as you please but if you can go overboard while clipped you should revise your system because if you go overboard and hang there outside the boat with a short crew you are dead.

Instead of saying that is not possible you should be trying to understand how it is done, that obviously depend on each boat deck layout. Basically you should have a way to pass the sprayhood area and then have two lines, one on each side that run over the cabin, where you clip yourself, then you unclip the other line, the one that allow you to reach there (two clips tether). You don't go over the cabin, you go over deck, near the lifelines, with the tether completely stretched and pulling your weight on the jack line (through the tether), that are over the cabin, the one on that side of the boat.

The lines over the cabin should be two and would go till forward the mast, one on each side and hanging from those lines you should reach the life lines, but not be able to pass over them.

It is simple, lots of time to studying your boat to see where fixation points should be mounted to have lines that will allow you to reach everywhere without the tether allowing you to fall overboard.

After a careful study have the fixation points installed (they need metal plaques on the inside), rig the lines, adjust the tether and you will have a safe boat. A basic exercise of architecture. It was the first thing I had done after having bought my boat.
I've never seen such a system, and have difficulty visualizing it. It might be a really good idea. Why don't you post some photos?
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Old 06-04-2016, 17:34   #230
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Attracting if you want, make misleading publicity regarding the skills needed in a word allowing them to attempt this in exchange of a big amount of money.

As it was posted before there are many sportive events were previous demonstrated sportive experience and skills are demanded to allow people to try to do sportive accomplishments, being it offshore racing, car racing, mountain climb. It is to do with social responsibility.

Inexperienced people don't know what they have ahead of them, the ones that promote these event know and they have a social obligation of not allowing lives of ignorant people to be put in risk.

Here they accept people that never have been on a boat and warrant that none experience is needed to race an offshore 70ft racer around the globe. Having money is enough. That makes no sense, except in what regards the ones that get rich with that.

That is a big contrast regarding racing a small mini racer on a transat. You can come with all the money you want that they will not allow you to race it unless you have made some other significant but smaller offshore races first.
I had a feeling that your point was that the promoters enticed stupid people into forking over big bucks for an adventure.

How would you like to fix that?
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Old 06-04-2016, 18:02   #231
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

I want to discuss nets on the life lines that extend down to the deck.

The problem with them I understand comes when crew want to sit at the rail. They need to have their legs swung out over the windward side of the vessel.

My first thought was an elastic lower line that snaps back down to deck level when no legs are under the net. However this elastic area could cut circulation in legs and may allow someone to slip under.

My second thought is the lower line right at deck level can be tensioned when it is lee side.

In other words I am saying it is possible to engineer nets onto these vessels to prevent someone going under or between life lines. Further, I would seriously consider making the life line net combination higher especially in critical areas, and areas there is no reason to be low.

I am also saying the cut of a jib may need to be higher to enable a taller life line.

Thoughts?
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Old 06-04-2016, 18:12   #232
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
hmmm . . . . not exactly true . . . . . Nepal has banned climbers who have not previously reached the peak of at least one 6,500-meter (21,325-foot) mountain.

So that does not ban amateurs (which by definition means those who don't do it for pay) at all.

And even if you are a complete novice, you can still make the attempt by either climbing from the non-Nepal side, or by paying a climbing service to take you up another mountain first. (there are some 'easy' 6500m peaks - like Lenin Peak, Chamsher Kangri, Lungser Kangri, Cordillera Blanca)
hmmm, also not exactly true I'm not getting into a discussion about what 'amature' means, but it's not just linked to being paid. An 'amature' is also someone who does not have experience in something.

My point was that Nepal are taking steps to address the known practice of complete amature's/novice's and are thus taking steps to mitigate the risk. They have taken other steps as well.
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Old 06-04-2016, 18:13   #233
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Everest is not the only mountain in the world.

Amateurs on organized "adventures" are crawling over most of the major peaks of the world, and more and more.

This activity is much more dangerous the ocean racing, so risk management is far more complicated.
Very true.
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Old 06-04-2016, 18:22   #234
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
FWIW, decided to do a MOB drill on the way to the Marquesas in pre GPS days. The crew was My wife and I, seas were about 5' and we were running DDW wing and wing. Threw an old life jacket overboard as the MOB. By the time I got the pole down, the engine started, and turned back to the OB location, the life jacket was gone never to be seen again. Powered back the estimated distance and ran a search for about a 1/2 hour to no avail before we continued on.

It was a sobering experience. Once we'd powered back, soon became totally disoriented on where to look for the life vest. Without the fix of a GPS position we had no idea where to look, we were lost. Trying to see the life vest or person in the water even in those moderate seas was like the proverbial needle in a hay stack. First thing you and your crew need to do is hit the MOB button on the GPS when a MOB happens. Without that fix and even moderate seas you'll have no clue and little chance of making a recovery.

They were lucky to find the body which was probably only because she had a locater beacon. Didn't say how she died as even hypothermia would be questionable in the short time before they'd gotten her back aboard.

The situation that ended with her being swept overboard is why I don't leave the cabin without being tethered. Keep a tether line permanently attached on the cockpit cabin sole with the end hanging in through the companionway so I can clip on before climbing the ladder to get out of the cabin. This tragedy is about the 10th I've heard of crew being called on deck and washed/knocked overboard before they clipped on.
Raymarine's life tag works for that. Automatically places a GPS position when the receiver loses contact with the tags. Won,t help if you were hanging over the side on a tether but if you are beyond the range of the receiver (15m) the alarm will sound and the system will place a waypoint at the MOB location and plot a course back to that position.

Wife insisted to install as we sail with just the 2 of us and how would she know otherwise when sleeping down below. Not to say that she would come back to get me anyway!!
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Old 06-04-2016, 18:33   #235
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Anyone who suggests that they should have stayed further south apparently missed the part of this that included racing. By its nature racing of any type in any sport increases the risks. Wether it is Wednesday night beer can races to the Americas Cup racing involves a much higher risk than just going out for a daysail. To suggest that all of those who choose to race are making an unreasonably risky decision are suggesting something I find abhorrent.

People die every year playing baseball should we outlaw it? People die every year racing cars, playing soccer, jogging, bike riding, day sailing, cruising, heck almost all physical activities involve some risk that could have been avoided. And I refuse to accept a society in which all risky activities are prohibited.

In this case, some of the safest boats in the world, commanded by some of the most experienced skippers, then crewed by very well trained if inexperienced crew, were racing around the world for the sheer enjoyment of doing so. Yes there was a safer route just get on an airplane, but there wasn't a faster one, and so while racing it was the correct one to take.

Personally I love blue water racing, I love the dedication to speed, a whole crew coming together to push as hard as possible. There is something amazing in seeing a crew of 10-15 people coming together to act as a unified whole, and I love speed. I take those risks knowingly, intelligently, and with an open eye that I could very well be killed at sea doing what I love. On the other hand I also love cruising, and slowing it all down, taking the safe route, and spending time offshore alone with my thoughts.

Different mentalities for different times. But even in cruising you accept risks you don't have too. Cruising is inherently more dangerous than commercial travel, so what you are really saying is that you should be allowed to take the risks you choose, but I shouldn't be allowed the same.
Been busy whilst I've been sleeping you lot.

I've noticed Dockhead has responded that this is a great response. Something I've noticed with you both, is that you both add things to threads to prove your point that have nothing to do with what is being discussed. I"ve not seen anyone suggest that sailing or racing should be banned.. not one. So, adding that defence is not helpful.

And whilst I understand and accept your first para that this is a race it's long extended race, in large modern vessels with largely inexperienced crew. For that reason in mitigating risk, going further South would have been a sensible consideration. Certainly lessoning risk to the crew is more important than coming first.

I'm not into racing, but I certainly admire those who do so. The saying that 'racing teaches sailmanship' I think is very true. But when paying amatures/novis's are deliberately included in the crew, then there has to be a serious consideration of their abilities and the organisers and the vessel skipper should mitigate the risk, more accutely than if the crew were all experienced professionals.
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Old 06-04-2016, 18:47   #236
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Funny you should mention motorcycles --

I had a great passion for riding motorcycles in my youth. It was something I loved and craved and dreamed about, much like sailing now. I rode both on and off road.

I was in a few accidents (like all motorcyclists), and a few of my friends were killed or crippled, and one day I came to the conclusion that you are actually NOT in control of what other drivers do, and I decided that the risks were unreasonable, and I stopped. It hurt me, and even now, decades later, hurts me, but I just could not justify in my mind the risks over which I had no control.

Sailing, even ocean racing, is vastly safer than that, and the risks are much more controllable, albeit the knowledge required is vastly greater.
Dockhead, please don't take this as an afront. But in this post you have revealed to me what I have previously seen in your posts about 'road rules' and riding bikes. And frankly, American's seem to be some of the worst drivers for offensive driving (apart from Asia) I would suggest, claim, that in ALL situations, with the exception of a deliberate running into a MC, a motorcylist most certainly can control the risks, even those risks from other road users. These technigues are learned in advanced driving training schools. Accidents occur with both MV drivers and MC riders when their defensive driving skills are not being observed. And if you have never done an advanced driving course, I doubt you will know what i'm talking about.
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Old 06-04-2016, 18:52   #237
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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We already did this in this thread, Polux.

Nobody put anyone on this boat. Everyone went willingly. They chose to go on the boat.
being pedantic over wording. not helpful at all.
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Old 06-04-2016, 19:10   #238
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Been busy whilst I've been sleeping you lot.

I've noticed Dockhead has responded that this is a great response. Something I've noticed with you both, is that you both add things to threads to prove your point that have nothing to do with what is being discussed. I"ve not seen anyone suggest that sailing or racing should be banned.. not one. So, adding that defence is not helpful.

And whilst I understand and accept your first para that this is a race it's long extended race, in large modern vessels with largely inexperienced crew. For that reason in mitigating risk, going further South would have been a sensible consideration. Certainly lessoning risk to the crew is more important than coming first.

I'm not into racing, but I certainly admire those who do so. The saying that 'racing teaches sailmanship' I think is very true. But when paying amatures/novis's are deliberately included in the crew, then there has to be a serious consideration of their abilities and the organisers and the vessel skipper should mitigate the risk, more accutely than if the crew were all experienced professionals.
Go back and read post 192 where it was suggested that these racers should have stayed further south to get out of the high winds found further north (where they were). In this case the weather routing was done specifically to put them in those wind conditions, because that was the fastest place to be.

If you are racing, and not intentionally putting yourself in the best wind you can find then you might as well go home.



One other thing that needs to be pointed out, the woman who was lost had sailed more than 20,000 sea miles. While she may have been a new sailor in terms of the time since she started, she probably has more sea miles than most of those posting here.

In addition she had at least 25 full days of on the water professional instruction. Again far more than most, even those who have more sea miles. I know licensed captains with less training than she had.
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Old 06-04-2016, 19:21   #239
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Have you calculated the SWL of the jackstays when "tightened to their maximum"?
At 175 degrees, the force on the jackline exerted by the tether is magnified by 11.5x.
Your 8 cm deflection would be 0.9% -- yow!
So it's clearly a very bad idea to tighten up your jacklines like that, and tight jacklines will not solve the fundamental geometrical problem of keeping yourself tethered on board.
Not sure I get the point here:

The life line which are made of strong nylon (or equivalent fabric) strap (like heavy-duty strapping belts) are fixed to the base of cleats at each end of the boat. It is an aluminum hull and the cleat are 'part of it', not fixed with screws. No risk to have them broken or getting loose.

The lines are then 13m long and the fabric has some elasticity as is demonstrated by the fact that at the end of the crossing the line have some slack as they are not tweaked during the crossing.

We never tried to break them or tear them apart and trying to do it never went to my mind..
There are pretty classical life lines and I never heard of any broken ones.

The tether have elasticity too and if someone falls over board the tether line will go over the guard rail that will add some elasticity too if someone falls over board.
Hence spare elasticity comes from: the life line itself, the tether line, the guard-rails cable and the stanchions that will get twisted : testing what the total elasticity is would be a cumbersome job.

Between the guard-rails are nets and at the cockpit level some fabric (we call them cagnard in France) to prevent from people slipping under or between the cables (which seems to be what happened on ICHORCOAL ...). The issue may be different for racing boats where people seat by the guard-rail windward to compensate for the heeling of the boat. We don't have this issue.

Having 5 or 20 cm would not make a big difference if someone falls overboard as the line is 1.2m long approximately, the guard rail if 0.7 m hight and the deck 1.2m more or less above the water level at beam level but we don't want to have them loose.

I did 4 Atlantic crossing with the ARC and went 4 times through their security check before leaving and the life lines 'tightened' to their maw with less than a hand between the deck and the line never raised any issue.

Thanks for the comment anyway.

Marc.
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Old 06-04-2016, 19:26   #240
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
being pedantic over wording. not helpful at all.
It was helpful to me to learn that Polux thinks the woman ignorant and a victim.
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