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Old 06-04-2016, 09:46   #211
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
...

Tether are designed to keep you attached to the boat in the event you fall overboard.
...
Yes, for an horrible death.

Several casualties in Europe with guys going overboard, clipped to the boat but unable to be pulled up by the crew (alive) resulted on a different design on the tethers that passed to be much shorter and with a double clipping (one longer and other shorter) preventing in most cases the possibility to fall overboard unless someone is dumb enough to use lines between the cleats to clip the tethers.

As a curiosity I don't know any brand except Bavaria that offers as an option a fixed safety system with lines and clipping points on the right boat points...and I am not sure if they still offer that as an option, but at least they know how to do it correctly if someone asks.
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Old 06-04-2016, 09:59   #212
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Absolutely. Both jacklines and padeyes.



Certainly not from the leeward side -- and no such thing exists. To prevent you from going under the lifelines from the leeward side, your tether would have to be anchored to a point which is further inboard from the rail, than the distance between the end of your tether and the CG of your body, with the tether and harness fully stretched out. Even the centerline of the boat wouldn't be far enough inboard for many cases.
...
Read my previous post about that. I use different tethers, one when I am just trying to have some rest on the cockpit, the same one that I use on the steering wheel and a different shorter one with two clips to go forward.

The lines to clip are near the center of the boat and I specifically adjust the tether line not to have any possibility to fall overboard. Most modern ones, specially German ones don't need any adjust, they just don't allow that if the lines to clip are well positioned over the cabin.

Forward of the mast I use a single line at the center of the boat that finishes on a winchard ring that allow me to just reach the bow and the furler without allowing me to go overboard.
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:02   #213
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Yes, for an horrible death.

Several casualties in Europe with guys going overboard, clipped to the boat but unable to be pulled up by the crew (alive) resulted on a different design on the tethers that passed to be much shorter and with a double clipping (one longer and other shorter) preventing in most cases the possibility to fall overboard unless someone is dumb enough to use lines between the cleats to clip the tethers.

As a curiosity I don't know any brand except Bavaria that offers as an option a fixed safety system with lines and clipping points on the right boat points...and I am not sure if they still offer that as an option, but at least they know how to do it correctly if someone asks.
Right, drifting away and drowning is a better death.

That is why you need to slow the boat immediately.

I use tethers with 3 and 6 foot leads.

I sailed a Nauticat 37 that had 4 pad eyes in the cockpit, plus pad eyes for the installation of jacklines.
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:04   #214
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Right, drifting away and drowning is a better death....
I sailed a Nauticat 37 that had 4 pad eyes in the cockpit, plus pad eyes for the installation of jacklines.
Both are horrible. The better is preventing any possibility of falling overboard from the boat.

The Bavaria option included not only all needed pad eyes but a permanently fixed jack line of the same material of live lines running in the inside of the Genoa traveler, from the beginning of the cockpit to forward of the mast, if I recall correctly, till the end of the cabin.
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:04   #215
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

BTW - this MAIB report on a MOB death while tethered is quite instructive

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/pers...sussex-england
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:11   #216
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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I agree with you except on the part of putting an inexperienced crew, that can even never have sailed before, after some weeks of training, on a 70ft Ocean racer on a racing circumnavigation through some of the most difficult and dangerous waters on the planet.
We already did this in this thread, Polux.

Nobody put anyone on this boat. Everyone went willingly. They chose to go on the boat.
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Old 06-04-2016, 11:41   #217
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Read my previous post about that. I use different tethers, one when I am just trying to have some rest on the cockpit, the same one that I use on the steering wheel and a different shorter one with two clips to go forward.

The lines to clip are near the center of the boat and I specifically adjust the tether line not to have any possibility to fall overboard. Most modern ones, specially German ones don't need any adjust, they just don't allow that if the lines to clip are well positioned over the cabin.

Forward of the mast I use a single line at the center of the boat that finishes on a winchard ring that allow me to just reach the bow and the furler without allowing me to go overboard.
I did read it. And I seriously doubt that you are able to go forward on the leeward side with no possibility of going over. You might be surprised at the distance between the CG of your body and the end of your tether WHEN THE HARNESS AND TETHER ARE STRETCHED UNDER LOAD. No anchor point on the side deck will work even if the tether itself is only 1cm long. And you won't be able to reach that place, on the cabintop roof, which is far enough from the edge, to keep you from going over. It's just a geometric impossibility. You need the halyard -- holding you from above -- but then how will you adjust it as you go forward.

A few padeyes here and there are very good, and my boat has them too, but do not solve the problem of the leeward side deck.

The cockpit of course is a different story, and here it is possible to be quite secure. In my case, I have two stout padeyes on the cockpit floor, and two stout railings at the companionway washboards to clip on to, and the cockpit itself, near the widest part of the boat which has a 5 meter beam, is far away from the rail. It is possible for the whole crew to gather in the cockpit securely clipped in.
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Old 06-04-2016, 11:45   #218
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Jason Flare View Post
We already did this in this thread, Polux.

Nobody put anyone on this boat. Everyone went willingly. They chose to go on the boat.
Attracting if you want, make misleading publicity regarding the skills needed in a word allowing them to attempt this in exchange of a big amount of money.

As it was posted before there are many sportive events were previous demonstrated sportive experience and skills are demanded to allow people to try to do sportive accomplishments, being it offshore racing, car racing, mountain climb. It is to do with social responsibility.

Inexperienced people don't know what they have ahead of them, the ones that promote these event know and they have a social obligation of not allowing lives of ignorant people to be put in risk.

Here they accept people that never have been on a boat and warrant that none experience is needed to race an offshore 70ft racer around the globe. Having money is enough. That makes no sense, except in what regards the ones that get rich with that.

That is a big contrast regarding racing a small mini racer on a transat. You can come with all the money you want that they will not allow you to race it unless you have made some other significant but smaller offshore races first.
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Old 06-04-2016, 11:56   #219
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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I did read it. And I seriously doubt that you are able to go forward on the leeward side with no possibility of going over. You might be surprised at the distance between the CG of your body and the end of your tether WHEN THE HARNESS AND TETHER ARE STRETCHED UNDER LOAD. No anchor point on the side deck will work even if the tether itself is only 1cm long. And you won't be able to reach that place, on the cabintop roof, which is far enough from the edge, to keep you from going over. It's just a geometric impossibility. You need the halyard -- holding you from above -- but then how will you adjust it as you go forward.

A few padeyes here and there are very good, and my boat has them too, but do not solve the problem of the leeward side deck.
,
I don't understand what you men but you are wrong. The lines to clip the tether are over the cabin to go froward, and every year when I mount the system I put the full weight of my body on the harness, puling it towards the side of the boat and make sure that there is no possibility of going overboard.

If you have the possibility of going overboard on your boat, that is beamier than mine, that means simply that you have the lines to clip the teeters too close from the sides of the boat or the tether is too long .
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:01   #220
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
BTW - this MAIB report on a MOB death while tethered is quite instructive

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/pers...sussex-england
Very instructive and interesting. The quality of the MAIB work always impresses.

That's a really useful case, because the boat was really well equipped and really well set up, the crew had the best clothing and equipment, and were apparently a crack team. They were all clipped on, all the time. The lifelines were even interlaced.

They probably were proud of their training and skill, and thought nothing bad could ever happen to them.

The guy who died was even clipped on to the windward jackline.

Pride goeth before the fall.

There is no way to be tethered to a monohull sailboat in a way that you can, geometrically, be guaranteed not to go over the rail, everywhere you may be. Besides the leeward side deck, also the bow, where the boat is too narrow to have a completely safe anchor point, is a place where your tether alone will not save you.


I presume that there is always a risk, other than when I'm in the cockpit, of going over the rail. I always have in my lifevest a rescue knife for cutting away the tether, although I do not assume that I will be in a condition to use it. The main thing is to avoid falling. It means not putting yourself in the path of green water, and it means holding on at all times as if you were not tethered at all. And all you can do is mitigate, not eliminate the risks.
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:06   #221
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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BTW - this MAIB report on a MOB death while tethered is quite instructive

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/pers...sussex-england
There was at least more two similar cases with mortal consequences on the last years. That was what lead to the abandon of 6ft tethers and to the use of shorter ones with two clips.

https://www.svb24.com/en/secumar-lifeline.html
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:14   #222
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Quote:
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I don't understand what you men but you are wrong. The lines to clip the tether are over the cabin to go froward, and every year when I mount the system I put the full weight of my body on the harness, puling it towards the side of the boat and make sure that there is no possibility of going overboard.

If you have the possibility of going overboard on your boat, that is beamier than mine, that means simply that you have the lines to clip the teeters too close from the sides of the boat.
So you are saying you can go all the way forward along the leeward side deck, while clipped on to the windward side? Across the cabin top? I'm sorry but this is not possible. Because how do you get around the different obstructions, dorades, sprayhood, and not the least, the mast? You can't reach over the cabin top to the windward side to unclip and reclip around an obstacle, no matter how small your boat is.


On my boat only a halyard could keep you from falling off the leeward side deck. I suppose a series of tethers could be permanently rigged from the cabin top, which you could clip in and out of as you move forward -- that would solve the problem of not being able to reach as far as the windward side of the cabin top, but would be ridiculous overcomplication.

I do have grab rails which run along the sides of the cabin top, at the top, and if I have to do something more or less stationary on the leeward side deck, I clip on to these with a short tether. The height of the cabin top (I have a raised saloon) greatly improves the geometry, and that makes it possible to be safe when doing a stationary job. But no jackline running along the deck itself can be completely safe, and so you cannot be completely safe while crawling forward along the leeward side deck.


You will see the same situation in the MAIB report linked above.

Click image for larger version

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I'm sure he also thought his tether would prevent his falling over.
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:56   #223
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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There was at least more two similar cases with mortal consequences on the last years. That was what lead to the abandon of 6ft tethers and to the use of shorter ones with two clips.

https://www.svb24.com/en/secumar-lifeline.html
There is no way I would wear that tether.

1) I want a quick release connection for the harness point. (I know that this is contentious.) The split ring is welded, and the shackle is a spinnaker sheet version which can be released under load.

2) I want dual action clips for the attachment points. I had one single action clip come right off a jackline at night in the mid-Pacific.



I also insist that my crew wears a knive when tethered.
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Old 06-04-2016, 13:23   #224
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
There is no way I would wear that tether.

1) I want a quick release connection for the harness point. (I know that this is contentious.) The split ring is welded, and the shackle is a spinnaker sheet version which can be released under load.

2) I want dual action clips for the attachment points. I had one single action clip come right off a jackline at night in the mid-Pacific.



I also insist that my crew wears a knive when tethered.
I can't believe tethers are sold with those simple caribiners shown in Polux's post. That is insane. I would never use one of those in a million years. Those will flip open if you look at them sideways. They should be forbidden to be sold like that -- for lifting I bet they are.

The hooks should look like the ones on this tether:

Click image for larger version

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As to the piston release halyard shackle at your end of your tether --

That introduces other risks, but might save your life if you go over the side while tethered. I always have a rescue knife, but being realistic, I think the chances are not all that good that I would be able to use it. I think your chances would be a lot better to be able to open that. So I think your idea is probably a good one.
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Old 06-04-2016, 14:15   #225
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

FWIW, decided to do a MOB drill on the way to the Marquesas in pre GPS days. The crew was My wife and I, seas were about 5' and we were running DDW wing and wing. Threw an old life jacket overboard as the MOB. By the time I got the pole down, the engine started, and turned back to the OB location, the life jacket was gone never to be seen again. Powered back the estimated distance and ran a search for about a 1/2 hour to no avail before we continued on.

It was a sobering experience. Once we'd powered back, soon became totally disoriented on where to look for the life vest. Without the fix of a GPS position we had no idea where to look, we were lost. Trying to see the life vest or person in the water even in those moderate seas was like the proverbial needle in a hay stack. First thing you and your crew need to do is hit the MOB button on the GPS when a MOB happens. Without that fix and even moderate seas you'll have no clue and little chance of making a recovery.

They were lucky to find the body which was probably only because she had a locater beacon. Didn't say how she died as even hypothermia would be questionable in the short time before they'd gotten her back aboard.

The situation that ended with her being swept overboard is why I don't leave the cabin without being tethered. Keep a tether line permanently attached on the cockpit cabin sole with the end hanging in through the companionway so I can clip on before climbing the ladder to get out of the cabin. This tragedy is about the 10th I've heard of crew being called on deck and washed/knocked overboard before they clipped on.
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