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Old 04-04-2016, 19:17   #151
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
......

About heaving to an Open 60, however -- I have no idea. With a kite up? All bets are off, and in this case neither heaving to nor any figure 8 is going to be of any use. God help you if you fall off an Open 60 running 25 knots with a kite up -- I guess you're just dead, aren't you?
That was not a Open 60 but a Clipper 70. A Open 60 is a solo boat while the Clipper 70 is a full crew racer more like the VOR70 but much heavier. An Open60 is easier to sail but as it is typically a solo boat you can be sure that if the skipper goes overboard he is done since there is nobody to catch him.

I guess that with 40k of wind sailing fast downwind, even if fast is only 12 or 13k, or even less in some cases, if we fall on the water with the typical couple crew we are done. For what I have seen, with some exceptions, wives are in most cases not great sailors.

Maybe I am wrong but regarding me I know that if I fall on the water with the boat going fast downwind in heavy weather I am dead, unless I am sailing near land and that is pretty rare.

Ann says that she only uses an harness over 45K of wind (if I understood right) in what concerns me I use harness every time I sail over 25/30K of wind unless the sea is flat and does not correspond to what one would expect to those winds.

That is also true that the seas on the med with that wind can be nastier than on the Atlantic, giving to the boat a much bigger and jerkier motion.
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Old 04-04-2016, 19:22   #152
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
You cannot heave-to when going downwind - whether or not you have a spinnaker.

You can however, use a tether.

My standing orders include using a tether BEFORE you step out of the companionway offshore, or at night, or whenever I decide it is necessary.
Yes, but in the case of people who've paid thousands to be part of the crew, what can you do to ensure your rules are followed on your offwatch?

The unfortunate skipper has lost two crew members, now, and perhaps, he, too, is questioning if there were a discipline problem. Does anyone following this thread know what his rules were, or indeed, if the Clipper Cup has standardized rules, or whether it is left to the skippers?

Thanks,

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Old 04-04-2016, 19:35   #153
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Yes, but in the case of people who've paid thousands to be part of the crew, what can you do to ensure your rules are followed on your offwatch?

The unfortunate skipper has lost two crew members, now, and perhaps, he, too, is questioning if there were a discipline problem. Does anyone following this thread know what his rules were, or indeed, if the Clipper Cup has standardized rules, or whether it is left to the skippers?

Thanks,

Ann
"THE founder of the round-the-world Clipper Race has said he is “frustrated” a sailor was killed after allegedly failing to follow safety procedures.

Sir Robin Knox-Johnston insisted that safety was “drummed into” sailors during intense training before they took part in the round-the-world yacht race between China and Seattle, USA.

He said: “We emphasise that this is about tethering on all the time, regardless, particularly when the weather is difficult as indeed it was on this occasion.

“It’s a restriction but people are used to it. The only person who can tell us why she wasn’t tethered is Sarah herself and of course she never will.

“We just don’t know. We are all frustrated she wasn’t tethered on. Terribly sad we’ve lost her obviously, but just frustrated.

“Just not clipping on takes about three seconds and it’s cost her her life.”


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/65...-Knox-Johnston
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Old 04-04-2016, 19:57   #154
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Yes, but in the case of people who've paid thousands to be part of the crew, what can you do to ensure your rules are followed on your offwatch?

The unfortunate skipper has lost two crew members, now, and perhaps, he, too, is questioning if there were a discipline problem. Does anyone following this thread know what his rules were, or indeed, if the Clipper Cup has standardized rules, or whether it is left to the skippers?

Thanks,

Ann
Rule #1 - Boats are not democracies.

Many of my crew do pay to sail with me.

I have standing orders. I insist that all crew read and initial each page. I am currently amending mine to adhere to Transport Canada regulations about emergency procedures and tweaking some sections. Included in the SOs are the situations in which I am to be awakened. "If in doubt" is one of the situations.

My watch captains are secondarily responsible to ensure that all are safe.

If at all possible, I adopt the same procedure as some navies. I am not assigned to a watch, I sleep in 45 minute bouts in the saloon and get up to check things out. Even while asleep I can usually sense when something is wrong.

BTW - The worst offenders tend to be the boat owners.
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Old 04-04-2016, 19:59   #155
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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That is very sad but also odd:

"Sarah Young, 40, had been tidying the yacht's cockpit during gale-force winds at the back of the boat when she was hit by the wave."

She was tidying the boat with 40k winds and bad seas?

Maybe a 1 Avril prank but if it is the case a bad taste one, since somebody had already died on that race.
Nothing odd about tidying up after performing a task like putting a reef in, its what you are constantly doing on a race boat. By tidying up I'm sure they were not referring to picking up beer cans but rather tidying up the lines so they are free to run etc.
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Old 04-04-2016, 20:02   #156
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Nothing odd about tidying up after performing a task like putting a reef in, its what you are constantly doing on a race boat. By tidying up I'm sure they were not referring to picking up beer cans but rather tidying up the lines so they are free to run etc.
That still does not explain why she was not tethered.
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Old 04-04-2016, 20:49   #157
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

My view of the world which is shared by others here is that if you go overboard at sea you are dead, nothing wrong with that because in most cases it's true.
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Old 04-04-2016, 21:26   #158
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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My view of the world which is shared by others here is that if you go overboard at sea you are dead, nothing wrong with that because in most cases it's true.
Especially in cold water.

Today's adventure was splashing a boat after a bottom job and motoring back to the slip. We hadn't gotten 50 yards from the travelift when the engine quit--the prop was jammed in the plastic covering they had put over the lift straps, which was not properly secured.

As we started drifting down the channel towards a low bridge, I had the owner drop the anchor. That stopped us, and I gave him my knife and told him to jump in and cut it the plastic loose.He went slowly down the swim ladder, and (with a lot of encouragement) finally got completely wet. However, he kept complaining he couldn't catch his breath, and after getting his head wet once and about 5 minutes in the water, he gave up. We ended up getting towed back to the travelift and re-hauled to free the prop.

Later this afternoon I mentioned this to one of the young bucks (who had joined me in cutting a fishing net loose on the way back from Hawaii in warmer water). He said that he had exactly the same experience when he dropped an expensive block overboard at the dock in SF bay and tried to swim down and retrieve it.

I thought they were both wankers, but in both cases the water temp was about 55 degrees F (13 C) and a little internet research came up with

National Center for Cold Water Safety - What is Cold Water?

which says that most untrained people will completely lose control of their breathing when they jump into water between 50 and 60 degrees F.

Ichor Coal was somewhere near 160 E/39N with sea surface temps below 40 F/5C.
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Old 04-04-2016, 21:43   #159
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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That still does not explain why she was not tethered.
Yes, that is a bit of a mystery, I have built open transom boats and think they are excellent allowing large cockpits that drain fast but it seems that having a net across the back of the cockpit could prevent this type of disaster without impeding drainage.
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Old 04-04-2016, 22:27   #160
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Especially in cold water.

Today's adventure was splashing a boat after a bottom job and motoring back to the slip. We hadn't gotten 50 yards from the travelift when the engine quit--the prop was jammed in the plastic covering they had put over the lift straps, which was not properly secured.

As we started drifting down the channel towards a low bridge, I had the owner drop the anchor. That stopped us, and I gave him my knife and told him to jump in and cut it the plastic loose.He went slowly down the swim ladder, and (with a lot of encouragement) finally got completely wet. However, he kept complaining he couldn't catch his breath, and after getting his head wet once and about 5 minutes in the water, he gave up. We ended up getting towed back to the travelift and re-hauled to free the prop.

Later this afternoon I mentioned this to one of the young bucks (who had joined me in cutting a fishing net loose on the way back from Hawaii in warmer water). He said that he had exactly the same experience when he dropped an expensive block overboard at the dock in SF bay and tried to swim down and retrieve it.

I thought they were both wankers, but in both cases the water temp was about 55 degrees F (13 C) and a little internet research came up with

National Center for Cold Water Safety - What is Cold Water?

which says that most untrained people will completely lose control of their breathing when they jump into water between 50 and 60 degrees F.

Ichor Coal was somewhere near 160 E/39N with sea surface temps below 40 F/5C.
If you have no idea about the risks of cold water, you have no place instructing people to jump into it. It was a stupid risk when the boat was in no danger.
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Old 04-04-2016, 22:41   #161
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
National Center for Cold Water Safety - What is Cold Water?

which says that most untrained people will completely lose control of their breathing when they jump into water between 50 and 60 degrees F.
.
Still this nonsense jumping around. It's not the water temp, it's fear and panic, and it's known to happen in warm water too.

BR Teddy
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Old 05-04-2016, 01:53   #162
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Still this nonsense jumping around. It's not the water temp, it's fear and panic, and it's known to happen in warm water too.

BR Teddy
I tend to agree... I've cleared a rope off my prop in maybe 12/13*C water without the benefit of a wetsuit.... I did put on multiple layers of thermals but it still involved about a dozen 'duck dives'.
I also believe in wetting the back of my neck where I believe our temperature sensors live.
Have also swum in 8*C water naked quite often and survived. It does however make the Klingons around Uranus abandon ship muy pronto.
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:01   #163
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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My view of the world which is shared by others here is that if you go overboard at sea you are dead, nothing wrong with that because in most cases it's true.

It's a good approach to take. One RTW race skipper was vilified as being ruthless when he told his crew if they fell overboard he wouldn't be turning around for them. I think he was just being realistic, in warning them that they REALLY didn't want to risk going overboard.
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:24   #164
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
You cannot heave-to when going downwind - whether or not you have a spinnaker.

You can however, use a tether.

My standing orders include using a tether BEFORE you step out of the companionway offshore, or at night, or whenever I decide it is necessary.
Mine too. no exceptions.
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:31   #165
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Still this nonsense jumping around. It's not the water temp, it's fear and panic, and it's known to happen in warm water too.

BR Teddy
I've been emphasising this too. But in addition to 'shock', or the unexpected reaction of the body when the brain is not expecting something. I'm stating to think it's very little understood even amongst seasoned and experienced CF sailors.
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