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Old 04-04-2016, 14:52   #136
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
I suggest trying this before assuming it works, as my boat, and many others, will not sit nicely in the hove-to position without greatly reducing the area of the jib. In strong winds with full sail, my boat will uncontrollably head down with the jib backed, until it uncontrollably jibes. Then you are back on the tack you started on, and hopefully haven't run down the MOB in the process.
It's an excellent suggestion -- everyone should know his own boat and how to make it heave to. How to get into the position and come out of it.

I heave to frequently and in all kinds of conditions, including big storms. It's second nature. My boat definitely does not behave as yours does. If the sail area was not too much for sailing, it's certainly not too much for lying hove-to, and has never been so on any of my boats over the years. What your boat does sounds weird, but different boats are -- different.


I mentioned above the case a couple of years ago when I had a davit break in vicious steep seas in the Baltic during a storm. I've never had so much green water on deck before or since. I hove to and stopped the boat before the dinghy could break loose, and she lay as pretty as you please in the storm as the crew and I worked on the after deck, getting a halyard on the dinghy, then jury-rigged a way to hold it up, never once needing to tend the helm or worry about the boat. We even went below for a cup of tea before getting under way again. On the great majority of monohulls, this works beautifully in an emergency, and even if you just need to stop for a cup of tea.

Back the jib and lash the helm a lee.
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Old 04-04-2016, 15:13   #137
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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The reason they used to teach the figure of 8 is that it always works, on all boats.
And that's exactly what I learned, why I learned, and what I practiced. (never had to use so I don't have that real experience).
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Old 04-04-2016, 15:29   #138
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

If you read the Pardey's book which is mostly about heaving-to techniques, they say that many modern sloops have the same problem (not stable hove-to on jib and main alone), and propose a drogue or sea anchor from the bow, as a fairly universal solution.

Another problem is excessive fore-reaching, which the sea anchor also fixes.

Neither are very practical to deploy in a MOB situation.
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Old 04-04-2016, 15:44   #139
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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And that's exactly what I learned, why I learned, and what I practiced. (never had to use so I don't have that real experience).
I also learned this, and I think it's great to know it. It's really useful to be able to do those maneuvers in an emergency.


But in real life conditions, in less than calm weather, when you don't have the casualty in sight, or when you don't have full crew ready on deck, the Figure 8 method has significant drawbacks, which is why the RORC and most others have moved away from it in favor of one or another of the Quick Stop methods.

The RORC version of the Quick Stop Method was worked out jointly between the RORC itself, the Naval Academy Sailing Squadron, the US Yacht Racing Union, and others as the one BEST all around method for recovering a MOB.

Immediately heaving to is also the method now required by the RYA for the Yachtmaster exam.

The world has moved on a bit since us older guys first learned.
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Old 04-04-2016, 15:45   #140
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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The reason they used to teach the figure of 8 is that it always works, on all boats.
Have you done a figure 8 single-handed?

I have no problems doing the upwind heave-to, sail-to, heave-to single handed. The downwind is a bit trickier, but it can be done. Just sheet in both the main and the jib. as hard as you can when coming about.

Many boats are handled by couples, if one goes overboard, you want a nice simple approach that can easily be done by one person without touching the sails (on the upwind). There is no dropping of sails, no luffing of sails. If you miss the first time just keep the wheel over.

The figures 8 usually ends with the sails luffing and the MOB to windward. Studies have shown that the vessel makes more leeway that the MOB. If you want the MOB to leeward, you had better keep the sails in control. That is easily done while hove-to. Also while hove-to it may be possible to lay on the deck besides the shrouds and grab the MOB by hand. I retrieved a very slippery TV antennae in sizable seas off Cape Scott doing just that. And that was on a Nauticat 37 with a lot of freeboard.
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Old 04-04-2016, 15:52   #141
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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Have you done a figure 8 single-handed?

I have no problems doing the upwind heave-to, sail-to, heave-to single handed. The downwind is a bit trickier, but it can be done. Just sheet in both the main and the jib. as hard as you can when coming about.

Many boats are handled by couples, if one goes overboard, you want a nice simple approach that can easily be done by one person without touching the sails (on the upwind). There is no dropping of sails, no luffing of sails. If you miss the first time just keep the wheel over.

The figures 8 usually ends with the sails luffing and the MOB to windward. Studies have shown that the vessel makes more leeway that the MOB. If you want the MOB to leeward, you had better keep the sails in control. That is easily done while hove-to. Also while hove-to it may be possible to lay on the deck besides the shrouds and grab the MOB by hand. I retrieved a very slippery TV antennae in sizable seas off Cape Scott doing just that. And that was on a Nauticat 37 with a lot of freeboard.
When I did a Compatent Crew course () we trained with the fig 8. We lost two mob caps stuffing around with sails. And that was on something less than a 40 footer.

I just kill any sails I have up and turn the motor on.
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Old 04-04-2016, 16:22   #142
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

"Have you done a figure 8 single-handed?"

Yes I have. It's not easy, but it's preferable to trying to heave-to a boat that won't heave-to.

"I have no problems doing the upwind heave-to, sail-to, heave-to single handed. The downwind is a bit trickier, but it can be done. Just sheet in both the main and the jib. as hard as you can when coming about. "

That's great, now let's see you do it on my boat. The point I would like to make is that the "heave-to" method only works on boats that will heave-to in that configuration, and many boats will not.
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Old 04-04-2016, 16:31   #143
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
"Have you done a figure 8 single-handed?"

Yes I have. It's not easy, but it's preferable to trying to heave-to a boat that won't heave-to.

"I have no problems doing the upwind heave-to, sail-to, heave-to single handed. The downwind is a bit trickier, but it can be done. Just sheet in both the main and the jib. as hard as you can when coming about. "

That's great, now let's see you do it on my boat. The point I would like to make is that the "heave-to" method only works on boats that will heave-to in that configuration, and many boats will not.
Mark

Earlier I pointed out that cats in particular can be difficult to heave-to. So I keep the figure 8 in reserve.

The more techniques one has up their sleeves, the better off they are.

I sail OPB's. I need a lot a arrows in my quiver.

Next week I am teaching a Sail Canada Intermediate Cruising course. That standard uses the figure 8. I will teach it.
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Old 04-04-2016, 16:39   #144
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
"Have you done a figure 8 single-handed?"

Yes I have. It's not easy, but it's preferable to trying to heave-to a boat that won't heave-to.

"I have no problems doing the upwind heave-to, sail-to, heave-to single handed. The downwind is a bit trickier, but it can be done. Just sheet in both the main and the jib. as hard as you can when coming about. "

That's great, now let's see you do it on my boat. The point I would like to make is that the "heave-to" method only works on boats that will heave-to in that configuration, and many boats will not.
I think no one denies, that different techniques may work better or worse on different boats, different crews, and different conditions. Naturally, everyone has to decide for himself.

I've never been able to get a catamaran to heave to, so I'm aware that such boats exist. Also boats with self-tacking jibs.


But a Bristol 31.1?? With that deep forefoot and all that lateral area in the keel??

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That ought to heave to like a natural. It's the boats with flat bottoms and high aspect keels, which can take some fiddling.

But I've never sailed one, so of course, we take your word for it.
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Old 04-04-2016, 17:10   #145
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

I believe the issue is the area of the jib, relative to the mainsail. To get the boat to heave-to reliably, I need to furl the jib down considerably - ideally to half its size.
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Old 04-04-2016, 17:14   #146
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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I believe the issue is the area of the jib, relative to the mainsail. To get the boat to heave-to reliably, I need to furl the jib down considerably - ideally to half its size.
If you say so.

My boat will heave to reliably even with the mainsail furled completely. It's just a question of the right rudder angle, which is revealed with just a tiny bit of experimentation.
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Old 04-04-2016, 18:43   #147
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pirate Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

On a dark night in sea's if anyone kept her spotted her in the water they'd have lost sight quickly.. one of the advantages of the figure 8 is it takes one back on the opposite tack/reach whatever under control and steerage till you reach a crossing point approximately where the MOB went over.. object being to get back there as quickly as possible to locate them then getting into position once you have.. remember.. waves were breaking over the boat large enough to wash her out of the cockpit.. how well a boat designed to scud with fin and spade will handle being hove to long enough and under some control for more than one attempt/pass I'm not sure.. better odds however if they're conscious and can grab a heaving line.
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Old 04-04-2016, 18:50   #148
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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On a dark night in sea's if anyone kept her spotted her in the water they'd have lost sight quickly.. one of the advantages of the figure 8 is it takes one back on the opposite tack/reach whatever under control and steerage till you reach a crossing point approximately where the MOB went over.. object being to get back there as quickly as possible to locate them then getting into position once you have.. remember.. waves were breaking over the boat large enough to wash her out of the cockpit.. how well a boat designed to scud with fin and spade will handle being hove to long enough and under some control for more than one attempt/pass I'm not sure.. better odds however if they're conscious and can grab a heaving line.
With respect, I think this is exactly the DISadvantage of the figure 8. You quickly loose any concept of where the casualty is, as you futz with sails and try to sail around on a varying heading. If you cross the position of the casualty, it's pure luck. If on the contrary you just stop ASAP, you will have a much stronger relationship to the casualty's position, and be closer to boot, much more likely to sight the casualty or spot him. Stopping freezes the range and bearing to the casualty, giving you much better orientation. This is really really clear if you practice these methods.


About heaving to an Open 60, however -- I have no idea. With a kite up? All bets are off, and in this case neither heaving to nor any figure 8 is going to be of any use. God help you if you fall off an Open 60 running 25 knots with a kite up -- I guess you're just dead, aren't you?
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Old 04-04-2016, 19:09   #149
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As I said before.. whatever fits skipper and boat the best..
I find the 8 works for me.. rescuing my Aussie hat more than once..
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Old 04-04-2016, 19:11   #150
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Re: Fatality - Clipper around the world race

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About heaving to an Open 60, however -- I have no idea. With a kite up? All bets are off, and in this case neither heaving to nor any figure 8 is going to be of any use. God help you if you fall off an Open 60 running 25 knots with a kite up -- I guess you're just dead, aren't you?
You cannot heave-to when going downwind - whether or not you have a spinnaker.

You can however, use a tether.

My standing orders include using a tether BEFORE you step out of the companionway offshore, or at night, or whenever I decide it is necessary.
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