Effects of Global Warming ??

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by ArtM

All appear (to me anyway) to be based on the acceptance of the others as established "fact" - a society of back-slapping kool-aid drinkers establishing "facts" through mutual acceptance.

Here is my source, I hope before someone asks for it.

This is an entertaining little show I saw recently. It goes along very nicely until near the end when essentially every sentence is prefaced with the phrase "the fact that..." followed by a "fact" that to my knowledge has never really been demonstrated in a practical way.

The Illusion of Time - YouTube

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I think it's more about needing to have a purpose - and that probably hard wired from the time when surviving was a 24/7 thing.

and over time that need for a purpose got re-directed into work for the benefit of others (which became the few!).......and along the way just got re-labelled (and sold to the plebs) as neccessary using whatever message / propaganda / brain washing worked over time......otherwise a tough sell with only: "your purpose in working is simply to ensure that I don't have to" .

and just to clarify, I have not gone all Commie - just aware that whilst the "rich" do have a role in a society they are not needed nearly as much as they have convinced folks they are..........and in fact individually they need "us" more than we need "them".

Brilliant - I will be stealing some of this in future trolls discussions.

[Bash]

From this morning's edition of USA Today: NASA: Climate change thins forests in eastern U.S.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It's only because fossil fuel is under-priced that alternative energy needs a kickstart.

so, the big bad greedy oil companies are selling their product for less than it's worth ?

shame on those evil, greedy capitalists.

[osirissail]

Climate change - global warming - global cooling - It is really all just a matter of perspective or how far you step back and look at the history of the Earth. It is said that during the 4.5 billion years of Earth history 4 times the planet has been devoid of any significant ice (the last being the dinosaur ages when Antarctica was a temperate jungle summer hang-out for the dinosaurs) and 4 times when the earth was covered with ice - "snowball earth."

About 11,000 years or so ago earth was in a serious ice age and now we are not. So it is obvious that we are in a warming climate cycle when you look in large enough blocks of years. Trying to guess or predict 1-year, 10-year, even 100 year periods of time is hardly relevant to predicting million year trends. If you expand the graphs scientists produce for temperature variations over million year spans of time you find "vibrations," that is, time spans of temperature rises and decreases very much like expanding the output of an boat's inverter hertz curve which changes from a seemingly smooth sine wave to a jagged square wave.

Personally, I find trying to credit humans for "climate change" is wildly egotistical especially when hugely more powerful influences like solar activity, planetary orbit change, earth core influences on our magnetic field and galactic neighborhood influences are so much more powerful. Kind of like the ant thinking he can take credit for the change in an elephant path direction. But it makes for great forum discussions. . .

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

so, the big bad greedy oil companies are selling their product for less than it's worth ?

shame on those evil, greedy capitalists.

If you think that oil is the product of an oil company, you won't be able to follow the rest of the discussion.

Edit - that wasn't nice

Oil is not the product of an oil company, it is the product of several billion years of global evolution. The oil company behaves as if it is their oil, and the public has largely accepted that premise, but in fact they did not produce it, do not own it except in a legal sense that primarily predicated on land-rights law, and that which is primarily predicated on sovereign law.... well, it all comes down to guns.

Under the law, if you can take something from the land, and kill or otherwise oppress anyone who opposes your right to do so, then by law you are the owner of whatever you took from the land.

But that does not mean you "made" it.

The rest of this conversation is predicated on the idea that oil companies (and related industries) do not "make" oil, but merely control the access to it.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by micah719

Underpriced? Lol. The cost of extracting and processing it is an order of magnitude less than the price we peons pay.

The cheap "drill & pump" oil is almost gone. Tarsands oil is only economically viable right now because of the tax breaks and low royalties being assessed by Alberta and Canada.

It's been widely noted that the US price for gas is unrealistically low, but it's also pretty clear that cheap gas is a big crutch to help keep the US economy limping along.

[Bluewaters2812]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Climate change - global warming - global cooling - It is really all just a matter of perspective or how far you step back and look at the history of the Earth. It is said that during the 4.5 billion years of Earth history 4 times the planet has been devoid of any significant ice (the last being the dinosaur ages when Antarctica was a temperate jungle summer hang-out for the dinosaurs) and 4 times when the earth was covered with ice - "snowball earth."

About 11,000 years or so ago earth was in a serious ice age and now we are not. So it is obvious that we are in a warming climate cycle when you look in large enough blocks of years. Trying to guess or predict 1-year, 10-year, even 100 year periods of time is hardly relevant to predicting million year trends. If you expand the graphs scientists produce for temperature variations over million year spans of time you find "vibrations," that is, time spans of temperature rises and decreases very much like expanding the output of an boat's inverter hertz curve which changes from a seemingly smooth sine wave to a jagged square wave.

Personally, I find trying to credit humans for "climate change" is wildly egotistical especially when hugely more powerful influences like solar activity, planetary orbit change, earth core influences on our magnetic field and galactic neighborhood influences are so much more powerful. Kind of like the ant thinking he can take credit for the change in an elephant path direction. But it makes for great forum discussions. . .

Now this is more like the context we should be putting things into. Homo Sapiens are taking "credit" or whatever you may wish to call it for way more than our egos should allow us.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

so, the big bad greedy oil companies are selling their product for less than it's worth ?

No, I mean that most consumers aren't paying enough to cover the true cost of using fossil fuels. In overall $$$ the west subsidizes oil consumption more than alternative energy.

[Bluewaters2812]

Originally Posted by Bash

From this morning's edition of USA Today: NASA: Climate change thins forests in eastern U.S.

Notice how they seamlessly refer to years of high temperature and drought in a specific localised region and then in the same breath name it climate change?

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Ship2210

Notice how they seamlessly refer to years of high temperature and drought in a specific localised region and then in the same breath name it climate change?

It's tough to sell a newspaper without some drama!

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Personally, I find trying to credit humans for "climate change" is wildly egotistical especially when hugely more powerful influences like solar activity, planetary orbit change, earth core influences on our magnetic field and galactic neighborhood influences are so much more powerful. Kind of like the ant thinking he can take credit for the change in an elephant path direction. But it makes for great forum discussions. . .

For that to be proved, you'd have to show how "solar activity, planetary orbit change, earth core influences on our magnetic field and galactic neighborhood influences" correlate with the observed recent climate changes.

We can and have measured "solar activity, planetary orbit change, earth core influences on our magnetic field and galactic neighborhood influences". Guess what? No correlation.

CO2 accumulation? Correlation.

So who's being egotistical?

[Bluewaters2812]

So who's being egotistical?[/QUOTE]

I'm sure you will know the answer to that, as do I.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Personally, I find trying to credit humans for "climate change" is wildly egotistical especially when hugely more powerful influences like solar activity, planetary orbit change, earth core influences on our magnetic field and galactic neighborhood influences are so much more powerful. Kind of like the ant thinking he can take credit for the change in an elephant path direction. But it makes for great forum discussions. . .

Humility of our limitations, and our position as just another critter on this big planet, is important. However, it is foolish to ignore the incredible power humans wield. There was a time when the forests looked too vast, when the oceans too big, when the number of bison, cod or whales looked too many for us to conceive of us having any impact. Today we have decimated many forests, polluted large parts of our oceans, and killed off more species than we even know.

Yes, we could disappear in a puff if hit by a big asteroid or comet. A nearby supernovae would kill us all, and if the Sun had a really big hiccup all our problems would go away (along with us). But this does not mean we aren't having a profound effect on this little planet of ours.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by moi

So who's being egotistical?

Originally Posted by Ship2210

I'm sure you will know the answer to that, as do I.

I so want this thread to go away, I really do. Or at least reclassified as non-sailing off-topic garbage discussion. And I said so to the mods. But I guess the page-views for this train-wreck are too sweet, or something.