Early 2000s Dufour - standing the test of time?

[richr]

Hi - does anyone have any informed knowledge or experience of how the 2000s Dufour 40/44 and 40/44 Performance are standing up? Based on my belief that it's a better build than a similarly aged BenJenBav, and IMHO a better design, they seem to be attractively priced.

What maintenance and upgrades should I look for (or factor into the price) beyond the usual engine servicing, standing rigging replacements? Aim would be to take across the ARC and back in a couple of years. I can price for tatty sails, new cordage or whatever; I just don't want the keel, rudder or mast to fall off.

More generally, what are people's thoughts on how (in terms of web resources) to find out how models that are past the first flush of youth are faring? I appreciate that "how it's been maintained" is a never-ending question...but I don't consider the glossy reviews at launch a very useful resource.

Thanks for your no-doubt insightful replies.

[LongRange]

Our boat is a 2005 Dufour 455 GL, which I think is the cruising version of the 44, with a less powerful rig.

Overall, the things that really matter seem to be holding up well. The fiberglass is like new, there is no corrosion on the metal, and the interior looks - in my personal opinion - a lot more "nautical" than the flat panel Ikea interiors that became de rigueur after the GFC. Overall, I think she is quite solid and strong by production boat standards.

Some things could have been designed better, as always. The bowsprit is not well supported. The shower pans are too flat for effective draining. There are (were) no backing plates behind the cleats! The seacocks are not cleverly arranged. All relatively minor things, many of which are fixable.

[Tillsbury]

I've been doing a lot of inspections of early 2000s production boats recently (in the process of buying). The key elements that do seem to have happened are the GFC (obviously), which in my experience has led to a fairly dramatic loss of quality in many of the production boat finishes. Just little things like chrome plating or stainless interior fittings being very poor, but it all adds up and raises suspicions about quality throughout.

Another significant event in this period was the dramatic increase in the price of lead around 2004/5. Many production boats went from a full lead keel to a cast iron or combination keel in this time, giving a very different ballast ratio on two boats of consecutive years. My boat has a 2.1m fully lead keel, and sails very differently from the same boat one year newer, with all cast iron.

The Hanses and Beneteaus I've looked at have not fared well over time (and it's only 10-15 years or so). Many parts look tired or need imminent replacement, and other areas such as full liners mean that you have really no idea whether structural elements are undamaged. After a while I crossed them off my list. Jeanneaus seemed to be slightly better built, although some of the design decisions didn't fit my criteria (but might fit yours). Bavarias and Dufours seemed to be significantly better built, to my slight surprise (particularly given the anti-Bavaria crowd on many forums). In particular, solid wood handholds all over the place, slightly oversize fittings from high quality manufacturers (Harken, Selden, Rutgerson etc), very heavily laid-up glassfibre throughout, and thoughtful access panels to places you want to get to are all good features. They feel very slightly old-fashioned, I guess, being just before the modern style of open-plan square everything with lots of hatches for light. We can't have everything.

Re: backing plates behind the cleats. Are you sure there aren't? I have no idea about the Dufour, but I thought the same about my Bavaria until I found that there were huge aluminium plates integral to the deck fibreglass where critical elements are attached (clutches, winches, cleats etc). You can't tell they're there at all until you drill through and find metal instead of foam core.

I've had a much older Dufour and seen more recent ones and have never had a complaint about them. I'd be happy to own another.

But, as you mention, I'm sure that there are some abused ones out there that wouldn't be as good a buy as a well-maintained privately owned boat.

I also found that boats with a few owners (say, a new private owner every four or five years) are generally in better condition. New owners tend to splurge money on nice new sails or what-have-you. Sometimes longer-term owners don't do this, as they get used to their boat being "old".

[richr]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

I've been doing a lot of inspections of early 2000s production boats recently (in the process of buying). The key elements that do seem to have happened are the GFC (obviously), which in my experience has led to a fairly dramatic loss of quality in many of the production boat finishes. Just little things like chrome plating or stainless interior fittings being very poor, but it all adds up and raises suspicions about quality throughout.

Another significant event in this period was the dramatic increase in the price of lead around 2004/5. Many production boats went from a full lead keel to a cast iron or combination keel in this time, giving a very different ballast ratio on two boats of consecutive years. My boat has a 2.1m fully lead keel, and sails very differently from the same boat one year newer, with all cast iron.

The Hanses and Beneteaus I've looked at have not fared well over time (and it's only 10-15 years or so). Many parts look tired or need imminent replacement, and other areas such as full liners mean that you have really no idea whether structural elements are undamaged. After a while I crossed them off my list. Jeanneaus seemed to be slightly better built, although some of the design decisions didn't fit my criteria (but might fit yours). Bavarias and Dufours seemed to be significantly better built, to my slight surprise (particularly given the anti-Bavaria crowd on many forums). In particular, solid wood handholds all over the place, slightly oversize fittings from high quality manufacturers (Harken, Selden, Rutgerson etc), very heavily laid-up glassfibre throughout, and thoughtful access panels to places you want to get to are all good features. They feel very slightly old-fashioned, I guess, being just before the modern style of open-plan square everything with lots of hatches for light. We can't have everything.

Re: backing plates behind the cleats. Are you sure there aren't? I have no idea about the Dufour, but I thought the same about my Bavaria until I found that there were huge aluminium plates integral to the deck fibreglass where critical elements are attached (clutches, winches, cleats etc). You can't tell they're there at all until you drill through and find metal instead of foam core.

I've had a much older Dufour and seen more recent ones and have never had a complaint about them. I'd be happy to own another.

But, as you mention, I'm sure that there are some abused ones out there that wouldn't be as good a buy as a well-maintained privately owned boat.

I also found that boats with a few owners (say, a new private owner every four or five years) are generally in better condition. New owners tend to splurge money on nice new sails or what-have-you. Sometimes longer-term owners don't do this, as they get used to their boat being "old".

Thanks both, very useful. We are on the same page regarding layout, handholds and non-IKEA. I want to enjoy and be safe being at sea; I look at some modern internal layouts and think they are too much "house" and not enough "yacht".

[Lionelsole]

We have a 2005 40 performance.
I agree with all of the above. It is much more robust than the current generation of production yachts and is designed for life at sea rather than entertaining in port. We have experience no problems that can’t be explained by sailing 30,000 miles, living aboard for years and anchoring 1000 times (new sails, rigging, anchor chain, windlass relay, minor plumbing leaks).
We have the owners’ version (2 cabin) and for us it is the perfect cruiser. It’s not for sale!

[richr]

Originally Posted by Lionelsole

We have a 2005 40 performance.
I agree with all of the above. It is much more robust than the current generation of production yachts and is designed for life at sea rather than entertaining in port. We have experience no problems that can’t be explained by sailing 30,000 miles, living aboard for years and anchoring 1000 times (new sails, rigging, anchor chain, windlass relay, minor plumbing leaks).
We have the owners’ version (2 cabin) and for us it is the perfect cruiser. It’s not for sale!

Thanks for your kind reply. Sounds positive! Now to tot up our finances...

I may come back to you Lionelsole with more Q's, is that OK?

Also do you have lead or iron down the mine?

[Lionelsole]

Ask away.
Keel is iron. Seems to keep us the right way up!

[elandra65]

Hi. I have a 2001 Classic 50. Generally a great boat and sails extremely well even in light winds. I am really happy with the performance. Quality is good with a real wood interior which I much prefer than the current square edged (stupid and dangerous) plasticky interiors popular today. I was a bit concerned about the small keel join area and spade rudder but so far no problems. I did buy a Hydrovane auxiliary wind vane partly because of the spade rudder. Watch out for the foam backed vinyl on the headliner and hull sides. Mine started falling off as the foam deteriorates and had to replace the whole lot. About 50 panels! Apparently the foam only lasts a few years so I replaced with non foam backed. Some things I prefer over Benes, Jenneaus etc are the classic construction. No glued in liners and the deck underside is accessible via screw in panels. It is the best all round cruising yacht I have had. Interestingingly Dufour are one of the few recommended boats in John Neal's list. Mahina Expeditions - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising

Good luck

Andrew

[richr]

Thanks - am I right in thinking the foam liner you mention is cosmetic trim?

[Flod]

I have a Dufour 41 gibsea (similar/ancestor to the grand large) from 2003 and it’s holding up really well. Gelcoat still looks white and shiny, mast & rigging is working fine, and interior looks like new. The electrical installations and water installations etc is very neat and still works fine. I have changed all hoses on the engine, installed new navigation equipment and redone the paint on the bottom once. Other than that it’s original and still going strong. Very much boat for the price I paid. Feels much more well built than the newer (2010->) Dufours I have been on.

[elandra65]

Sorry for the late reply. All the headliner and much of the exposed hull sides were covered with foam backed white vinyl. Foam was about 3mm thick. After a few years in heat and humidity no doubt exacerbated by the tropics the foam turns to brown powder and the liner let's go and falls off. I was going to replace with same but the supplier told me I could expect no more than 10 years before it happened again. I replaced with non foam backed. You can hardly tell the difference with headliner and the backing was thin smooth plywood. The hull sides I replaced with carpet like liner as these were not so smooth.

[richr]

Thanks - sounds like "not a deal breaker"? A grand?