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Old 05-04-2016, 14:15   #61
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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What is PBO? I would like to read that info. ____Grant.

I believe they are referring to Practical Boat Owner. Boat maintenance advice, sailing and motor boats, practical advice | PBO

There is also a PBO forum on Yachting and Boating World website.
Practical Boat Owner's Reader to Reader
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Old 05-04-2016, 14:24   #62
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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Not the OVNI neither the other French centerboarders that are identical in that regards (Allures, Garcia, Boreal). There is some logic with the French choosing that type of boat as their favorite type of voyage boat
I didn't know that, so these other designs all have internal ballast laying in the floor of the boat?
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Old 05-04-2016, 14:44   #63
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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I tried saving and blowing up the picture, but it got so pixelated that I couldn't tell you for sure if there were three people or two standing on it, much less anything at all about the keel area.
Are you using some kind of software to enhance the picture?
I just blew the picture up, it appears as though there are little bits of keel still attached and that elsewhere it is a clean break.

Granted it is merely speculation on my part but that is what jumped out at me.
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Old 05-04-2016, 14:52   #64
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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I have never seen a vd Stadt welded the way you describe. How many vd Stadt's have you checked the keel? How can you say this keel "appears to have been welded to the bottom only"?

The info that there are Samoa's with bolt-on keels was new to me and opens up the possibility of loosing the keel while underway.

The bad construction bottom-only weld is nonsense imo.
I can say it because the keel is missing. Usually a pretty good indication of weld failure.

That being said I am not familiar with what method VD Stadt used when building this boat, all I do know it is a steel hull as mentioned earlier and knowing how I have seen things done I considered this to be a strong possibility.

It really comes down to what method the mfgr used, was it a steel filled keel that was welded to the bottom after the boat was built, or was it a led keel attached with keel bolts?

Either way there was some kind of serious failure here and since the rudder is still in tact I am suspecting the welds on the keel failing for a reason.
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Old 05-04-2016, 15:39   #65
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

From the pictures, keeping in mind we are only seeing one side, there is no damage to the under body of the boat. Would lead me to believe that the keel fell off at sea, the boat went inverted, and washed up on the reef upside down. Still a mystery as to how a welded on keel on a steel boat would fall off. Highly doubtful that the keel would be bolted on. For one thing, if it was lead would be a dissimilar metal and prone to electrolysis. No advantage to bolting on a steel keel and a lot of disadvantages. Only reason I could see for bolting on a keel would be transporting the boat with the keel detached and that doesn't seem to be the case with this boat.


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Looking at this picture being a welder, it looks to me like the welds failed.

Steel welds are very strong in one direction, once a weld starts to crack it will continue to crack, often times a cracked weld can be separated with nothing more than a hammer.

If this keel separated at the welds then it tells me that most likely who ever welded it welded it too cold, did not get enough penetration and then to make to look good ground the weld down.

That is a certain recipe for failure.

The keel appears to have been welded to the bottom after the boat was constructed. This means it was not tied into the frames, rather just hanging on the bottom with a weld around the outside. This is an inferior construction method, often times used when the builder does not have the ceiling height in their boat shed to build the boat with the keel on.

The worst part is if this is the case they didn't have to hit anything, simply being heeled over the strain on the keel is pretty intense and it is pulling in such a way that once a crack formed it would just continue all the way around.

They would hear a couple of pop's and the next thing they know the boat would be on its side or even upside down as the keel would instantly fall off with a violent unloading.

It would be a very hard event to survive and give no warning. I highly suspect this was the case.
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Old 05-04-2016, 16:14   #66
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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From the pictures, keeping in mind we are only seeing one side, there is no damage to the under body of the boat. Would lead me to believe that the keel fell off at sea, the boat went inverted, and washed up on the reef upside down. Still a mystery as to how a welded on keel on a steel boat would fall off. Highly doubtful that the keel would be bolted on. For one thing, if it was lead would be a dissimilar metal and prone to electrolysis. No advantage to bolting on a steel keel and a lot of disadvantages. Only reason I could see for bolting on a keel would be transporting the boat with the keel detached and that doesn't seem to be the case with this boat.
I agree with that, which is why I suspect it was a weld failure.

Especially considering these would have been overhead welds which are way easier to under penetrate if you don't know what you are doing, generally speaking when welding overhead I bring the head up 5-15 amps depending on the thickness of the material.
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Old 05-04-2016, 16:38   #67
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

^^ I can tell you that a keel butt welded to the skin is NOT a method approved by the designers (Van De Stadt). They have exactly two methods they support - #1 is as I described up thread - the keel is taken up into the boat and tied into structural frames and floors with all welded done from both sides, and #2 is bolted on. (note: there is an approved hydraulic lifting daggerboard option also)

Everything that we can see on this boat is per the Van De Stadt plans - the rudder is the plan stock rudder and all the deck details are per the plans. I simply cannot imagine a dutch ship yard, which followed the plans for everything else, butt welding the keel to the skin - as it is commonly understood poor practice - it is understood you dont do that even for a rudder skeg much less a keel. And it is not a method supported or approved by the designer.
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Old 05-04-2016, 18:31   #68
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
What is PBO? I would like to read that info. ____Grant.
Interesting article and not only this part:

"... it’s important to remember that there are thousands of boats sailing around, and it is virtually unknown for a keel to just fall off. Many of the warning signs of keel attachment weakness are detectable with some simple checks that you can carry out yourself.....

When a boat loses a keel at sea the first reaction is often to blame the keel bolts, but the evidence does not support this; and other failures are actually more common. In 2008, the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) set up a working party on keel losses, and they found 72 cases since 1984 of boats losing their keels.

There were defined causes in 44.5% of cases, but only three were attributed to keel bolt failure. Other causes included welded fin failures (11), grounding collision (8), internal structure (8) and canting keel system (2)....."


Read more at How to check keel bolts - Practical Boat Owner

And read also this one. Interesting too:
http://www.pbo.co.uk/expert-advice/k...-surgery-26444
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Old 05-04-2016, 18:39   #69
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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Originally Posted by nortonscove View Post
Ironically PBO has an article this month about keel failure and statistically steel and aluminium accounted for the greatest number of failures of the total included in their study period. It isn't the general consensus of posters to the forums but proven out in their findings. Sadly this couple have just joined the tragedies hidden in the stats.
Someone (you?) posted this on another thread. I asked for a link to that article and read it. It has nothing to do with STEEL HULLS, it talks about steel or iron KEELS on plastic boats.

If I'm reading the wrong article please let me know, but until then please stop.
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Old 05-04-2016, 18:41   #70
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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It might be possible for the flooded boat to have remained afloat due to presence of thick, closed cell foam insulation and the absence of ballast.

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Once, a long time ago I tried to figure out how much foam I would need to float my boat. Can't recall details but it ain't gonna happen. You would end up with a coffin for an interior.
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Old 05-04-2016, 18:49   #71
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Interesting article and not only this part:

"... it’s important to remember that there are thousands of boats sailing around, and it is virtually unknown for a keel to just fall off. Many of the warning signs of keel attachment weakness are detectable with some simple checks that you can carry out yourself.....

When a boat loses a keel at sea the first reaction is often to blame the keel bolts, but the evidence does not support this; and other failures are actually more common. In 2008, the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) set up a working party on keel losses, and they found 72 cases since 1984 of boats losing their keels.

There were defined causes in 44.5% of cases, but only three were attributed to keel bolt failure. Other causes included welded fin failures (11), grounding collision (8), internal structure (8) and canting keel system (2)....."


Read more at How to check keel bolts - Practical Boat Owner

And read also this one. Interesting too:
Keelbolt Surgery - Practical Boat Owner
That's the article. It is NOT about steel or aluminum hulled vessels. It is about plastic vessels with bolted on keels, some of which contain steel or iron. The welds are about welding ballest fins or torpedoes to the bottom of the keel.

Please stop, you are propagating nonsense.
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Old 05-04-2016, 18:51   #72
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Someone (you?) posted this on another thread. I asked for a link to that article and read it. It has nothing to do with STEEL HULLS, it talks about steel or iron KEELS on plastic boats.

If I'm reading the wrong article please let me know, but until then please stop.
I guess he is talking about the 11 welded fin failures mentioned on the article and assuming a welded fin can only be welded to a steel or aluminum boat. Can they be welded on a fiberglass boat?
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Old 05-04-2016, 18:56   #73
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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That's the article. It is NOT about steel or aluminum hulled vessels. It is about plastic vessels with bolted on keels, some of which contain steel or iron. The welds are about welding ballets find or torpedoes to the bottom of the keel.
The information is not related to the article but with a search ISAF had made regarding the causes of 72 keel failures since 1984, regarding all types of keel boats and it seems to me that welded fins means just that, fins that are secured through welding and that can only regards aluminium or steel boats.
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Old 05-04-2016, 19:06   #74
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I guess he is talking about the 11 welded fin failures mentioned on the article and assuming a welded fin can only be welded to a steel or aluminum boat. Can they be welded on a fiberglass boat?
Yeah, that language in the article is poor. But in the context of the article it is absolutely clear he is talking of modern production boats. I think if he used the word "bulb" it would have been more clear that he was talking about an appendage on the bottom of a keel. He clearly makes a distinction between a "fin" and a "keel."

I PRESUME these "fins" are of welded construction, thus "welded fin". Obviously you can't weld to fiberglass. So these fins were welded to attachments coming down from the boat or had long threads going through the hull into the boat. I don't know, how would you attach a bulb or torpedo to a keel?

I THINK his point was that the Failure can be at the top of the ballast fin, not where the bolts come through the keel into the hull.
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Old 05-04-2016, 19:09   #75
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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Originally Posted by nortonscove View Post
Ironically PBO has an article this month about keel failure and statistically steel and aluminium accounted for the greatest number of failures of the total included in their study period. It isn't the general consensus of posters to the forums but proven out in their findings. Sadly this couple have just joined the tragedies hidden in the stats.
That is somewhat surprising. Did it differentiate between bolt on and encapsulated keels for glass boats? I can't see an encapsulated or full keel ever being a problem from that perspective. I suspect one never would have that issue with an IP.

What about swing keels? Any comments on those? One would think that as those boats will sail even with the keel all the way up, due to having a stub keel, that they would not have a problem.

All of the above is pure speculation, and if someone knowledgable can chip in, maybe we all can learn.

What a terrible tragedy, but they got 15 years at sea most of us won't get. One can only hope it was not a drawn out passing.
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