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Old 05-04-2016, 09:43   #46
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

As a former accident investigator (aircraft), a good investigator should be able to ascertain what happened to the keel with markings and what's left. Damn shame.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:52   #47
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

Notice the pic shows a Canadian courtesy flag flying ?
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:53   #48
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

Marine Traffic shows Talagoa's track with her last reported position on 2016-03-25, 1955 UTC at N09-39-07.9, W080-09-12.6. Is there a reef anywhere close to that?

FWIW, OPC archives show a minor L in the area at that time (~1006 mB).
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:58   #49
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

Very, very sad news.

What could have hit the keel so hard that it caused such sudden and swift damage? Only speculating here...

If they had hit a reef, wouldn't they have had some time, even a few minutes, to put on their life jackets or deploy their life raft?

Is a whale strike capable of ripping the keel off and overturning the boat?

What damage would occur if the keel was hit broadside (either accidently or on purpose) by a Columbia drug submarine?
Inside Seized Drug-Smuggling Submarines - Photo Essays - TIME

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Old 05-04-2016, 10:15   #50
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
We don't know if the keel loss was the cause of the accident. The keel may have been lost with the boat banging on rocks however it is very strange that if that was the case the ruder to be in one piece and the hull apparently not showing any marks.

It is even more strange because this is not a boat built by an amateur but professionally built in Groningen that is know by their high quality aluminum an steel yacht shipyards.
Looking at this picture being a welder, it looks to me like the welds failed.

Steel welds are very strong in one direction, once a weld starts to crack it will continue to crack, often times a cracked weld can be separated with nothing more than a hammer.

If this keel separated at the welds then it tells me that most likely who ever welded it welded it too cold, did not get enough penetration and then to make to look good ground the weld down.

That is a certain recipe for failure.

The keel appears to have been welded to the bottom after the boat was constructed. This means it was not tied into the frames, rather just hanging on the bottom with a weld around the outside. This is an inferior construction method, often times used when the builder does not have the ceiling height in their boat shed to build the boat with the keel on.

The worst part is if this is the case they didn't have to hit anything, simply being heeled over the strain on the keel is pretty intense and it is pulling in such a way that once a crack formed it would just continue all the way around.

They would hear a couple of pop's and the next thing they know the boat would be on its side or even upside down as the keel would instantly fall off with a violent unloading.

It would be a very hard event to survive and give no warning. I highly suspect this was the case.
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Old 05-04-2016, 11:03   #51
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

I tried saving and blowing up the picture, but it got so pixelated that I couldn't tell you for sure if there were three people or two standing on it, much less anything at all about the keel area.
Are you using some kind of software to enhance the picture?
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Old 05-04-2016, 11:46   #52
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

Water tight bulkheads are designed to keep water out of the main part of the boat in case of a collision. I dont think that the small area that is sealed at the bow or stern could possibly keep a boat that size afloat. If welds had failed, the boat would have flooded in the main section and undoubtedly sunk. At least thats my opinion. I also think that even from that distant photo, we would see ripped/torn metal. Having owned one steel boat and studied many, I was surprised about the possibility of a bolt on keel. I have seen boats with hard dodgers that would unbolt for trucking, but never run across a bolt on keel. Failed keel bolts would explain the fact that the boat went turtle, but didnt sink. Of course this is speculation on my part, and I hope an investigation or information from the builder can clear some of this up. Loosing sailors is sad, but it seems that those folks lived the good life. Bless them. _____Grant.
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Old 05-04-2016, 12:11   #53
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigNickMontana View Post
Looking at this picture being a welder, it looks to me like the welds failed.

Steel welds are very strong in one direction, once a weld starts to crack it will continue to crack, often times a cracked weld can be separated with nothing more than a hammer.

If this keel separated at the welds then it tells me that most likely who ever welded it welded it too cold, did not get enough penetration and then to make to look good ground the weld down.

That is a certain recipe for failure.

The keel appears to have been welded to the bottom after the boat was constructed. This means it was not tied into the frames, rather just hanging on the bottom with a weld around the outside. This is an inferior construction method, often times used when the builder does not have the ceiling height in their boat shed to build the boat with the keel on.

The worst part is if this is the case they didn't have to hit anything, simply being heeled over the strain on the keel is pretty intense and it is pulling in such a way that once a crack formed it would just continue all the way around.

They would hear a couple of pop's and the next thing they know the boat would be on its side or even upside down as the keel would instantly fall off with a violent unloading.

It would be a very hard event to survive and give no warning. I highly suspect this was the case.
I have never seen a vd Stadt welded the way you describe. How many vd Stadt's have you checked the keel? How can you say this keel "appears to have been welded to the bottom only"?

The info that there are Samoa's with bolt-on keels was new to me and opens up the possibility of loosing the keel while underway.

The bad construction bottom-only weld is nonsense imo.
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Old 05-04-2016, 13:03   #54
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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Very sad indeed, i think this is the first time i have heard of the keel falling off a metal boat, a beautiful too i might add. I would not count on ever finding the actual cause, we never seem to, so I'm sure there will be lots of speculation, like there has been with the catamaran Rainmaker. I have to agree with others that have noted that the couple looked amazingly fit and healthy in that photo for their age, the lifestyle obviously agreed with them.
Ironically PBO has an article this month about keel failure and statistically steel and aluminium accounted for the greatest number of failures of the total included in their study period. It isn't the general consensus of posters to the forums but proven out in their findings. Sadly this couple have just joined the tragedies hidden in the stats.
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Old 05-04-2016, 13:15   #55
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

Jedi,
Sorry to hear they were close friends.
I tried to PM you but it says your inbox can't take it, more etc.

Very sad occurrence.

Mark

Sent from a stupid phone that replaces words with weird stuff.
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Old 05-04-2016, 13:20   #56
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

It might be possible for the flooded boat to have remained afloat due to presence of thick, closed cell foam insulation and the absence of ballast.

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Old 05-04-2016, 13:20   #57
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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Originally Posted by nortonscove View Post
Ironically PBO has an article this month about keel failure and statistically steel and aluminium accounted for the greatest number of failures of the total included in their study period. It isn't the general consensus of posters to the forums but proven out in their findings. Sadly this couple have just joined the tragedies hidden in the stats.
Very interesting information and that contrasts strongly with the general opinion specially considering that there are much more fiberglass boats than steel and aluminum ones and by a huge margin. Can we find that on line?
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Old 05-04-2016, 13:33   #58
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

I guess even though the Ovni is aluminum it can never lose its ballast, something positive about the design.
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Old 05-04-2016, 13:46   #59
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

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I guess even though the Ovni is aluminum it can never lose its ballast, something positive about the design.
Not the OVNI neither the other French centerboarders that are identical in that regards (Allures, Garcia, Boreal). There is some logic with the French choosing that type of boat as their favorite type of voyage boat
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Old 05-04-2016, 13:53   #60
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Re: Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

What is PBO? I would like to read that info. ____Grant.
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