Dutch couple found dead, their sailboat found upturned

[clockwork orange]

Ah, that would make some sense, Europe may be different but in the US you can move some quite tall loads with the proper routing. I have recently built a removable hard dodger for a customers Hans Christian 38 for exactly this reason, of course we didn't have the removable keel option.

Steve.

[unclemack]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

^^ as I mentioned way above . . . . The reason for the bolt on here is the combination of the hard dodger and deep keel make the boat too high to truck (under highway bridges). Not many cruising boats are that "tall". That is a limitation that may or may not be important - but I guess the designers say that the bolt on is perfectly safe and gives you the trucking option.

Even if failure by the owners to have a known issue rectified is held to be partly responsible for this tragedy I think specifications for the Samoa and others will probably be quietly changed to (at least) increase the size and number of bolts.

Removable keel solutions with no bolts being subject to both tension and shear are perfectly possible.
Blacksmiths found workable solutions to similar problems a long time ago.

The bolt on also gives you the option of switching keels - as in a deep one for round the world and then a shallower one for home waters after cruising retirement (Dutch waters can be shallow). But I think this is a less common reason than the trucking rational.

This seems to me like a once or twice in a lifetime requirement. If it were the only reason for considering a removable keel - and knowing the ease with which steel can be reworked - I'd choose a fully welded keel.
Wouldn't want to store a spare keel or rely on drawings still being available thirty years from now.

[estarzinger]

^^

I am not defending the bolt on keel . . . We went with a welded keel, despite it causing some difficulty when we were trying to get the boat out of the welding yard. There were various times I was quite happy to have the welded keel but also a couple times when I wished I had the bolt on.

Several owners have talked to us before and while they built samoa's. Several picked the bolt on and really I am just passing on those owners thoughts about why. You may disagree with the thoughts but none of them were stupid people.

[Jolly Roger]

I have just read about three quarters of this very long thread, and it is very upsetting to read about the terrible loss, especially two experienced world cruisers. I packed it in due to the speculation as to the cause, which doesn’t get anyone anywhere, until actual facts are known—if ever.
All I know is that I wouldn’t buy any boat with a keel and rudder hanging from the bottom, however constructed and whatever material. It’s downright unnatural and dangerous and the sole result of multiple areas of competition in modern boat building, price, weight, speed, etc, etc.
There are many such boats on the hard in our yard, and just looking at them scares the living daylights out of me.
Give me a long continuous hull, with encapsulated ballast and a rudder hung properly—any day.

[unclemack]

@ estarzinger

I intended no criticism of you or any other Samoa owners - or your perfectly reasonable decisions - can't blame people for choosing an option offered by a respected designer.

For all I know Talagoa's owners may even have contacted the designer or others for advice before sailing that last time and been reassured, hence the "Even if" of my last post.

Apologies for any offence, even though unwittingly given

[JPA Cate]

@sv_gilana,

Thank you for going to have a look, I'm sure many of us will feel grateful to learn what you have to share.

What a sad event!

Ann

[LEOCAT66]

We are currently on the hard for a bottom job and a stern tube replacement. One of the local experts and I were discussing this tragedy today. He is working with us on our current repairs and is an engineer in the marine industry here. In addition he owns and sails a one off 52' steel ketch. After thinking a bit and hearing what is known at the moment concerning the leaking and groundings he also holds the belief that crevice corrosion is the most logical conclusion unless hard contact was made with a serious submerged object.

Not too very long ago I had an occasion to learn a small bit of info on crevice corrosion. A fellow sailor had just purchased a boat and was going through the equipment onboard. One of the items was an old style board type bosons chair. Rope attaching the chairs seat were attached to a stainless approx. 3/8" shackle to which the lifting halyard was secured. He noticed one small rust spot on the center of the shackle loup, which looked new in every other respect. When he squeezed the shackle it broke in half in his hand. We wondered how often the chair was used by the unsuspecting previous owner. Really scary and it became obvious that visual inspections can reveal very little at times. Not sure, but this instance could have also been caused by construction issues, metal quality or corrosion.

[DavefromNZ]

Satellite AIS tracking of Talagoa. Last satellite contact 2016-03-26 23:37. There are large time gaps though with Sat AIS tracking.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by DavefromNZ

Satellite AIS tracking of Talagoa. Last satellite contact 2016-03-26 23:37. There are large time gaps though with Sat AIS tracking.

Where it stops transmitting it means the boat sunk?

I guess that the conclusion we can take from here is that any serious grounding need a very serious inspection with the keel taken out and the bolts inspected in a very detailed way.

I remember another thread where it was said that a proper blue water boat could be grounded at will and that no serious inspections were needed. It is possible that this accident had to do with that sort of over confidence: strong boat, no problem... and I am not talking only about the boat owners.

This should not have happened and I don't believe that boat is not properly designed and built.

[estarzinger]

I have put a red "x" where the boat was found - Cayo Bolivar.



It is 40nm from that last Sat position. The time between sat positions is quite long and the prior sat position was about twice that distance. Given the wind and current direction - I would say it most likely they sailed onto the reef and lost keel on impact. If they had lost keel at sea the boat would have probably floated in a different direction (eg west) - current is from the north and wind blowing west. Reef right in line with last two positions.



^^ serious grounding ALWAYS requires inspection - no matter how strong boat.

[estarzinger]

Might be an e-chart 'zoom failure' (like Vestas wind)

Zoom 1 - red X on spot boat found - looks like shallowing water but not drying


Zoom 2 - shows drying reef and islands at the spot

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Polux

Where it stops transmitting it means the boat sunk?

I guess that the conclusion we can take from here is that any serious grounding need a very serious inspection with the keel taken out and the bolts inspected in a very detailed way.

I remember another thread where it was said that a proper blue water boat could be grounded at will and that no serious inspections were needed. It is possible that this accident had to do with that sort of over confidence: strong boat, no problem... and I am not talking only about the boat owners.

This should not have happened and I don't believe that boat is not properly designed and built.

I think I remember it a bit different. The problem with "blue water boat" is coming up with a definition. That standard, of sailing into an unmovable object without functional damage was offered as ONE POSSIBLE definition. It may be more proper to use that as a standard for an "expedition" vessle, significantly far from reasonable repair facilities.

It is something I've considered because I have (had?) some ambitions to doing some remote cruising, AND have had the pleasure of whacking something very hard very unexpectedly. I know that at times I can be an idiot and sometimes I just need a bigger margin of safety. I look at anchors the same way. Made me feel good this week when the "experienced professional" sailed past me dragging anchor in the middle of the night.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Might be an e-chart 'zoom failure' (like Vestas wind)
....

Ouch. Neither the island/key(Cayo Bolivar?) where the boat was found, nor the Cayos De Albuquereque to the SW, show up in Google Earth. There are some "photo" icons that can be seen but only a light blue blob is shown when zoomed in. San Andrew/Andres is shown on Google Earth.

Later,
Dan

[estarzinger]

^^ yea, I am a bit surprised GE does not have more resolution - but it is a remote spot and I know they greatly detune the resolution in places like it.

GE - showing just shallow area (at all GE zoom levels):

But click on one of their pictures and it shows the reef/island that is there:

[JPA Cate]

Another computer assisted grounding! Oh, what a terrible shame. Words fail me.

Evans, thank you so much for the data you posted above.