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Old 23-08-2015, 15:32   #121
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

So, they couldn't carry enough fuel to get across the atlantic? I thought only catamarans motored all the time.
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Old 23-08-2015, 15:33   #122
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

talking about where the waste goes and waste separation:

... in Germany we started to separate waste very early (I think).

In a lot of places the waste is burnt for electricity or heat (incinerator?). It was soon discovered these companies had to buy plastic (and paper) to mix it again with the leftover waste because this stuff alone would not burn any longer ...

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Old 23-08-2015, 15:39   #123
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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Originally Posted by HughMcB View Post
The basis of your entire argument seems to be "well larger stuff ends up in the ocean too, so who cares about this smaller stuff".

You can carry this logic onto negate legitimate complaints across a multitude of topics. Say the mistreatment of women for instance, "ah what's she complaining about a black eye, women in Saudi Arabia get stoned to death".

It's pretty shoddy logic to base one's argument on the old "well worse stuff happens too, so who cares".


See above, rather pathetic excuse.
Talk about shoddy logic. I think your critical thinking mechanism is broken. If you have read all my posts on this thread then you may have noticed that what I am talking about is wasting time and effort criticizing such a minor act when it could be spent trying to do something about the truly horrendous acts of pollution that are purposely perpetrated every day.

How you tied this into women being beaten is beyond me.
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Old 23-08-2015, 16:08   #124
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
So, they couldn't carry enough fuel to get across the atlantic? I thought only catamarans motored all the time.
Only steel ones, with AP linked to GPS. Keep up man. Oh, almost forgot. They need to have at least one Rocna on board too.

Only thing that shocks me about all this, is that they actually posted it on youtube.
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Old 23-08-2015, 16:42   #125
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Edmonton recycles 55% of its trash. They actually care for their trash fairy.

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I have no desire to counter this claim because I have no reason to believe its not its not true. However, I fail to see how its germane to the issue... most of the world does not recycle and never will.

What problem are you trying to solve? The environment doesn't have feelings. This is all about the environmentalists making themselves feel better.

Oil in the ocean is a big issue for living things. Although I do not personally pollute, I only do so because - like lots of people - I don't want to see trash not because I feel its better for the environment. The environment doesn't care if you drop that can in the ocean, only YOU care that its in the ocean, the environment will continue to do whatever it normally does to whatever it encounters regardless of your feelings on the issue.

We will never see trash 16,000 feet below the water (unless on NatGeo TV or somesuch) just like I won't see that same trash in a landfill, so I fail to see the harm in disposing of degradable waste in the deep ocean - cans, bottles, metallic non-radioactive items, paper waste, etc.
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Old 23-08-2015, 16:45   #126
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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I probably should have said legal not fine. So long as they were more than 12nm out from land it is legal to toss "food wastes and all other garbage including paper products, rags, glass, metal, bottles, crockery and similar refuse;" overboard.
Legal yes, but not fine.
Plastic is also illegal - even 12 miles out, and I think glass also is now.

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Old 23-08-2015, 17:11   #127
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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No excuse - fact.

You really hate that its true. You can go ahead and get all red in the face and stomp around, yell, kick, and scream ....but that's the facts.

Barrel comes from sea -> Barrel goes to dump -> Barrel gets burned -> Barrel loaded onto barge -> Barrel goes to sea.
I do not believe in your "facts". Most steel (about 2/3) is recycle into scrap, and most drums are reused several times as drums before being recycled. It is very easy to recycle steel (even when mixed into a waste stream that is burned) because you can pick it up with magnets. Dumping a steel drum is not just a breach of Annex V of MARPOL (fact) but it is also wrong (opinion) because it is very easy to give them for someone to reuse them.

Disclaimer: I earned my pension working for the second largest iron ore producer..
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Old 23-08-2015, 17:12   #128
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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And you actually believe that?

The people in Massachusetts believe the same figures, but in fact.... Nearly all of the trash gets fed into incinerators. Honestly.. What do you think happens to the bazillions of plastic bottles? In Massachusetts we're led to believe that they're turned into park benches, that's what the politicians claim. I've yet to see a single park bench make from recycled plastic.
Yes.

They developed a 170 million dollar facility which cities from all over the world are coming to study. Edmonton stopped incinerating any garbage some 40 years ago.

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Old 23-08-2015, 17:13   #129
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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No excuse - fact.
Asserting something as fact, does not a fact make.

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You really hate that its true. You can go ahead and get all red in the face and stomp around, yell, kick, and scream ....but that's the facts.
I'm not stomping around. Or red in the face. I just think it was an unnecessary move is all. Could have been avoided. A better use of that barrel could have been found.

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Barrel comes from sea -> Barrel goes to dump -> Barrel gets burned -> Barrel loaded onto barge -> Barrel goes to sea.
Sure, if you ignore reusing the barrel, or repurposing the barrel, or recycling the barrel.

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I'm not joining your happy parade.
No worries.
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Old 23-08-2015, 17:24   #130
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

Ship at sea in deep international waters dumps an empty diesel drum that has been holed to ensure sinking...

Perfectly legal.
Skipper's decision.

What's the fuss about?
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Old 23-08-2015, 17:28   #131
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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When you take out the rubbish, does it just magically disappear and only environmentally friendly things happen to it? How can you be so sure?
Depends, is it the recycling, green waste or general refuse? The latter typically ends up in a landfill. Although you couldn't take a barrel there, you'd have to bring it to a disposal centre, who'd most likely take it and recycle it as it's worth money.

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And you actually believe that?
Why would you not believe that the recycling which gets stored in separate bins, taken away in different trucks, to a new facility that costs taxpayers millions, is NOT being recycled? It would actually cost the local authorities more to perpetrate such a conspiracy rather than just make money off recycling. Weird argument.

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The people in Massachusetts believe the same figures, but in fact.... Nearly all of the trash gets fed into incinerators. Honestly.. What do you think happens to the bazillions of plastic bottles? In Massachusetts we're led to believe that they're turned into park benches, that's what the politicians claim. I've yet to see a single park bench make from recycled plastic.
Well, I can't speak for MA, sounds like you need some better regulatory oversight if you think your recycling is just being dumped.

Also just a side note, incinerators are quite efficient, they use ionized carbon scrubbers to filter out "greenhouse gases" and the leftover ash works great in soil. So I'd prefer to see waste go to an incinerator than a landfill, and most definitely to the sea.

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Ken's pretty much spot on. I live in MA. I don't know if the recycleables go to the incinerator but the cardboard in the dumpster marked, Cardboard Only, goes in the same truck as all the other trash that goes to the incinerator.
That's a shame really. However don't let this colour your view on recycling as impossible or not pragmatic. Because here it works a treat, and actually generates a lot of economic growth for small third party businesses who use the recycled content.

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One plus is that our incinerator produces and sells steam to a neighboring factory.
That's a great initiative!

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Usually, the incinerator company is the top bidder for the recycleables. They turn it into electricity or as Jason described... steam for a local factory. Yet the "Green politicians" go on claiming extraordinarily high compliance with recycling... and the masses continue to believe that their trash matters.
Again, perhaps you've never experienced an actual functional recycling system. That's not a failing of recycling, that's a failing of your local authority.
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Old 23-08-2015, 17:38   #132
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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Talk about shoddy logic. I think your critical thinking mechanism is broken. If you have read all my posts on this thread then you may have noticed that what I am talking about is wasting time and effort criticizing such a minor act when it could be spent trying to do something about the truly horrendous acts of pollution that are purposely perpetrated every day.
I still don't get this. I mean you could apply this to anything.

Why use a bike instead of a car to work, because airplanes cause the most CO2 in transit anyway?
Why turn down the thermostat during the winter, because industrial plants use the most power consumption anyway?
Why use reusable bags for groceries, as retail packaging produces more plastic waste anyway?

Basically your argument is "although Y is harmful, X is more harmful than Y, therefore don't mention Y and instead mention X." Here's a though, why not mention X AND Y. you know tackle the big offences and the minor offences. Or else (as mentioned above) why not just forget about cycling to work, setting back your thermostat or reusing grocery bags where possible, as there's far worse offenders out there.

You've negated the whole premise of "think global, act local", and instead asserted "unless you tackle global, don't bother with local".

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but that's just me.

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How you tied this into women being beaten is beyond me.
Analogy, look it up, it's useful!
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Old 23-08-2015, 17:39   #133
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
Ship at sea in deep international waters dumps an empty diesel drum that has been holed to ensure sinking...

Perfectly legal.
Skipper's decision.

What's the fuss about?
Have you heard about Annex V of the MARPOL treaty?

Here is a summary for you:

Outside "special zones" that are subject to special restruictions, the only things you can dump are:
  • >3nm from the nearest land for comminuted/ground food waste (able to pass through a screen with openings no greater than 25mm)
  • >12nm from the nearest land for food waste and cargo residues that are not harmful to the marine environment
  • Cleaning agents which are not harmful to the marine environment (contained in cargo hold, deck and external surfaces wash water)
  • Animal carcasses (as far as possible from the nearest land and in accordance with IMO guidelines).

Here you have a bit more detail:
http://www.ukpandi.com/fileadmin/upl...%20Updated.pdf

I will not defend the silly details such as banning the discharge of cooking oil, but that is another story.
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Old 23-08-2015, 17:42   #134
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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most of the world does not recycle and never will.
Argumentum ad populum.

Just because a large population does or doesn't do X, has no bearing on X's validity.
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Old 23-08-2015, 18:29   #135
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Re: Dumping empty fuel barrels in the ocean

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Originally Posted by svfinlandia View Post
Legal yes, but not fine.
Plastic is also illegal - even 12 miles out, and I think glass also is now.

Al, S/V Finlandia
Add metal after the recent revision to Annex V

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