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Old 18-01-2016, 16:06   #61
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Depends on the boat. Could be "all of the above" or "none of the above".

...
Yes, "depends" is really the right answer. Depends on the boat and the details of the conditions.

Wind speed is not so much a concern as wave characteristics. For 40-50 knots, you dont necessarily need either, but if thats been going on long enough to create fully developed and breaking seas...now you've got a problem.

For example, how long are the conditions expected to last, either sea anchor or drogue are long duration tactics. Not something you would deploy for a squall.

A 40-50 knot offshore breeze relatively near land, maybe no big deal. I've hove too in a similar scenario in 65, gusting 80, quite comfortably for 24 hours. No drogue or sea anchor used. We made coffee, cooked a good meal, and slept comfortably. Due to being in the lee of the land, seas never exceed about 20' and never broke really heavily.

Ive been becalmed in big confused seas after a storm where none of the above options would work effectively...that just sux not matter what. Fortunaltely they weren't breaking so it was just uncomfortable.

For a multihull, where speed control becomes an issue much sooner, I think at minimum a drogue. I don't like making long runs in a multihull without one. A sea anchor is debatable, maybe for transosceanic runs, but not near coastal for me. Ive carried sea anchors for thousands of miles on both monos and multis and yet to use one "in anger". More likely to have secenarios to use one on a mono for example where loss of steering is more likely (thus eliminating heaving to or runnning with it using a drogue as an option).

Bottom line: it depends. You need to know your boat, how it behaves, have as many options as possible and know how and when to use them.
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Old 18-01-2016, 16:31   #62
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
Hi 2Hulls. One of the great learning incidents for sailors caught in fierce weather was the Australian Sydney to Hobart race in 1998. The investigative report that followed the disaster of that befall that racing fleet showed that those who chose to run downwind mostly lost their boats and some their lives. It also concluded that if either a drogue or a parachute had been used non of the boats would have sunk.
...
I think that often running with it gets misinterpreted as a binary decision. Its not a binary decision, you can use all the above as appropriate in a given event. Running with it is fine for a squall or weather where you dont expect big breaking seas to develop, but if you hold it to long in deteriorating conditions then you can find yourself trapped in that stratgegy as many in the Hobart race did.

The unforecast conditions in the Hobart race deteriorated rapidly into survival conditions. I seriously doubt pundits, or self serving vendors, ability to make claims that no boats would have been lost (...if only they had used our product). No way to validly make that statement without a control group.

One account I recall reading was of a helmsman who realized the winds had calmed and he could see/breath without spray making it difficult. He opened his eyes and looked around...only to sea a huge breaking wave arcing over the boat...no technique or device is gonna work in that situation.

Some days the dragon wins...the trick is to be somewhere else on those days.
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Old 18-01-2016, 20:13   #63
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by Privilege View Post
I too have been doing as much research as I possibly can, trying to make the right decision; parachute or series drogue for my 44' cat. Having never sailed in gail or storm conditions, my decision will be based on the advice of others that have. I have just finished reading the 'secrets of heavy weather sailing' and I have also read numerous Coast Guard reports offering opinions on the difference between the two systems. The trouble is, most of the opinions expressed are based on experience with mono hulls with very little research in relation to cats. Even many of the links on this thread relate to research conducted primarily on monos. The reason the series drogue seems to be favored for monohulls is that a mono will yawl violently when used with a parachute. This gives rise to the probability that the boat will turn broadside to the waves with obvious possibly catastrophic consequences. It seems to me that with a bridle used from the wide bows of a cat, turning broadside is much less likely. Also, the stern of a mono is much more pointy than that of a cat and is therefore not subjected to the same forces that a cat would in breaking waves, so again reading research conducted on monos is of reduced value. I'm not trying to talk myself into one or the other, I am completely open-minded but the major arguments in favour of a drogue over a chute seem to apply only to monos.
Hi Privilege. I know there are a lot of opinions but if you read the advise in this thread the consensus for cats is a series drogue.

I want to thank all the wonderful sailors who have shared their knowledge on this. My mind is settled. I'm going with a Jordan Series Drogue.

Regards and thanks to all.

Chaya
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Old 18-01-2016, 20:20   #64
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Yes, "depends" is really the right answer. Depends on the boat and the details of the conditions.

Wind speed is not so much a concern as wave characteristics. For 40-50 knots, you dont necessarily need either, but if thats been going on long enough to create fully developed and breaking seas...now you've got a problem.

For example, how long are the conditions expected to last, either sea anchor or drogue are long duration tactics. Not something you would deploy for a squall.

A 40-50 knot offshore breeze relatively near land, maybe no big deal. I've hove too in a similar scenario in 65, gusting 80, quite comfortably for 24 hours. No drogue or sea anchor used. We made coffee, cooked a good meal, and slept comfortably. Due to being in the lee of the land, seas never exceed about 20' and never broke really heavily.

Ive been becalmed in big confused seas after a storm where none of the above options would work effectively...that just sux not matter what. Fortunaltely they weren't breaking so it was just uncomfortable.

For a multihull, where speed control becomes an issue much sooner, I think at minimum a drogue. I don't like making long runs in a multihull without one. A sea anchor is debatable, maybe for transosceanic runs, but not near coastal for me. Ive carried sea anchors for thousands of miles on both monos and multis and yet to use one "in anger". More likely to have secenarios to use one on a mono for example where loss of steering is more likely (thus eliminating heaving to or runnning with it using a drogue as an option).

Bottom line: it depends. You need to know your boat, how it behaves, have as many options as possible and know how and when to use them.
Thanks Belizesailor. You make a lot of sense. I personally wouldn't want to use a parachute in the middle of the Atlantic. Given the risk of rudder damage.

All individual accounts of experience with series drogue gives me confidence to sail with this if ever needed.

Regards,
Chaya
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Old 18-01-2016, 20:27   #65
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
I think that often running with it gets misinterpreted as a binary decision. Its not a binary decision, you can use all the above as appropriate in a given event. Running with it is fine for a squall or weather where you dont expect big breaking seas to develop, but if you hold it to long in deteriorating conditions then you can find yourself trapped in that stratgegy as many in the Hobart race did.

The unforecast conditions in the Hobart race deteriorated rapidly into survival conditions. I seriously doubt pundits, or self serving vendors, ability to make claims that no boats would have been lost (...if only they had used our product). No way to validly make that statement without a control group.

One account I recall reading was of a helmsman who realized the winds had calmed and he could see/breath without spray making it difficult. He opened his eyes and looked around...only to sea a huge breaking wave arcing over the boat...no technique or device is gonna work in that situation.

Some days the dragon wins...the trick is to be somewhere else on those days.
Scary. I agree with the dragon statement. But I also would hope the dragon can be slayed.
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Old 18-01-2016, 20:52   #66
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Privilege View Post
I too have been doing as much research as I possibly can, trying to make the right decision; parachute or series drogue for my 44' cat. Having never sailed in gail or storm conditions, my decision will be based on the advice of others that have. I have just finished reading the 'secrets of heavy weather sailing' and I have also read numerous Coast Guard reports offering opinions on the difference between the two systems. The trouble is, most of the opinions expressed are based on experience with mono hulls with very little research in relation to cats. Even many of the links on this thread relate to research conducted primarily on monos. The reason the series drogue seems to be favored for monohulls is that a mono will yawl violently when used with a parachute. This gives rise to the probability that the boat will turn broadside to the waves with obvious possibly catastrophic consequences. It seems to me that with a bridle used from the wide bows of a cat, turning broadside is much less likely. Also, the stern of a mono is much more pointy than that of a cat and is therefore not subjected to the same forces that a cat would in breaking waves, so again reading research conducted on monos is of reduced value. I'm not trying to talk myself into one or the other, I am completely open-minded but the major arguments in favour of a drogue over a chute seem to apply only to monos.

maybe this article on the jordan will sway your decision one way or the other..good luck.. all the best..

Anchor by stern
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Old 18-01-2016, 21:38   #67
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

I am surprised there has been no mention of the Drag Device Data Base book yet. This catalogues first hand accounts of the use of drag devices and separates mono's and multi's. Personally I have no claim no great storm experience, but chose to take both and have the parachute anchor rigged and ready to deploy.
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Old 18-01-2016, 22:22   #68
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by KaveingaMax View Post
I am surprised there has been no mention of the Drag Device Data Base book yet. This catalogues first hand accounts of the use of drag devices and separates mono's and multi's. Personally I have no claim no great storm experience, but chose to take both and have the parachute anchor rigged and ready to deploy.
Hi KaveingaMax. Thanks for the heads up. Interesting site. Sure has a lot of info. I just read the section on Sea anchors and drogue and was surprised that there was no mention of the Jordan Series Drogue. But otherwise I found it very interesting. Everyone's viewpoint from experience has validity in my mind.

One thing I learned from that site was how you could use a drogue for steering. Nice thing to know if a thousand miles offshore.

"Emergency Steering Device:*Towed off the stern with an adjustable bridle tied to corner cleats, a speed-limiting drogue may be used as an emergency steering device in the event of normal steering failure. Get the drogue properly positioned in the wave trains and then shorten one bridle arm and lengthen the other until the boat is pointing in the direction you want to go."

Regards,
Chaya
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Old 19-01-2016, 00:22   #69
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

On steering with a drogue: the bridle should go to the midships on either side and then back to the primary winches.

Chris - SailMentor.com
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Old 19-01-2016, 02:38   #70
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Going Walkabout:

I don't know whether or not you've seen it, but mikereed posted aboout using a series drogue with a catamaran. His thread provoked a lot of comment.

Ann
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Old 19-01-2016, 05:07   #71
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Setting a drag device from the bow of either a mono or multihull carries a high risk of rudder damage. Rudders are designed for forward movement and any sudden backwards motion could result in a catastrophic outcome. It is better deploying either a series drogue or an unitary drogue from the stern to ensure the movement is always forwards. See the fate of the catamaran "Be Good Too" in early 2014.
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Old 19-01-2016, 05:12   #72
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Scary. I agree with the dragon statement. But I also would hope the dragon can be slayed.
With todays forecasting, odds are strong that you can be somewhere else. However, on long passages (transoceanic long) all you can do is choose season and route and hope for the best. This is where these sorts of device and tactics come into play.

On short (a week or less) near coastal runs, which is what most cruisers really do most of the time (despite all this talk of "blue water" ), modern forecasting technology gives you very high odds of not encountrimg sustained bad weather.

We only survive in direct exposure to the forces of nature because Mother Nature is apathetic to our existence...we die for the same reason. Ultimately, in true survival conditions we are not capable of slaying that dragon, but we might get lucky and live thru it.

Fortunately, the odds of the typical cruiser encountering true survival conditions are very unlikely if they are prudent in their planning...the goal is to never confront the dragon in the first place.
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Old 19-01-2016, 11:32   #73
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

This is a little off topic but actually relevant to choosing a Jordan series drogue.

It has been pointed out that deploying a correctly set up Jordan series drogue is quite easy. Retrieval is said to be a bit harder. I would like to know what you think of this idea.

1. Attach say 10m of floating retrieval line to the end of the drogue. It is not attached directly to the boat and it would stream after the drogue.

2. When you want to retrieve the drogue, bouy the boat end and cast it off.

3. Motor around to the retrieval line and pick it up.

4. Pull the drogue in with the cones collapsed.

What are your critical thoughts on this idea?

Brian
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Old 19-01-2016, 12:12   #74
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by b_rodwell View Post
This is a little off topic but actually relevant to choosing a Jordan series drogue.

It has been pointed out that deploying a correctly set up Jordan series drogue is quite easy. Retrieval is said to be a bit harder. I would like to know what you think of this idea.

1. Attach say 10m of floating retrieval line to the end of the drogue. It is not attached directly to the boat and it would stream after the drogue.

2. When you want to retrieve the drogue, bouy the boat end and cast it off.

3. Motor around to the retrieval line and pick it up.

4. Pull the drogue in with the cones collapsed.

What are your critical thoughts on this idea?

Brian

sounded good till i thought about it for a minute.. seems i read the proper way to deploy the drogue is with a small anchor at end so your floating line will never make it to the surface..
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Old 19-01-2016, 12:29   #75
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Drag Device Database:

Drogues on Catamarans:
Drogues on Catamarans | Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base

Sea Anchors on Catamarans:
Sea Anchors on Catamarans | Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base


pick yer poison. These are stories from people who have experience.
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