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Old 20-10-2015, 02:30   #46
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Correct; when you get a quote from the licence holder (Dave at Ace sails in the case of the Jordan series drogue) he bases this on the type of boat (in my situation a multi-hull) and the likely displacement. He never mentions the number of cones and that for my purposes is irrelevant. What ever the formula it works. Sure I could go and count the cones but if someone is getting a knock off made then it wont be me that gives them that information. What I can tell you is that 2ft cones is way, way wrong. Examine a Jordan drogue and you'll see there is massive amount of work involved in creating one of these. It may even be made in (dread to say it) China but Dave has checked it out and ensured the quality. Mine has seen live duty so I can vouch for it. A good bit of kit and if you buy one you'll live to pass it along as a family heirloom.
I can look up the total price but all in I think it was around $4k - tho' I stand to be corrected - if someone really wants to know I can check the exact cost and spec. This was for a complete matched kit. I guess everyone is aware of quality kit like using Tylaska J locks. I also have the drawings for both bow and transom attachment points that I inherited years ago.
Ace Sails are NOT the licence holder for Don Jordan's design. They are one of three main builders of series drogues worldwide. The other two are OCEANBRAKE in the United Kingdom and BRYAN GLOVER in Australia. Ace have merely registered the name Jordan Series Drogue as their trademark, something that Don Jordan would certainly not have approved of. The number of cones in a series drogue is driven by the displacement and whether it is a mono or multihull. Suggesting that any other professional builders produce "knock offs" is both untrue, malicious and defamatory.
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Old 20-10-2015, 03:28   #47
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
We dont see more than 3 knots boat speed with it in use and that was in what I hope was the only weather of that power that I will experience ever again.
Scary stuff.
Why not going bit faster, like 6-8. That would ease slightly stress on hull and fittings and also relative speed against overtaking wave will be smaller ?
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Old 20-10-2015, 04:28   #48
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
Why not going bit faster, like 6-8. That would ease slightly stress on hull and fittings and also relative speed against overtaking wave will be smaller ?
There must a range of speeds that work fine.

With a smaller drogue the speed goes up. The speed of the boat may not be constant, so the drogue should be large and long enough to keep the speed low enough also in the largest waves. Sometimes it may make sense also to go quickly (even "dive") through the wave instead of travelling with it for a long time.

A large drogue keeps the speed smaller. A large drogue may also influence the shape of the approaching waves more. Slower speed does thus not necessarily mean harder hits by the waves.
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Old 20-10-2015, 06:22   #49
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

I've been thinking about the issue of rudder damage while riding to a parachute off the bow. It's easy to imagine how being blown backwards while sliding down the face of a wave into a trough could cause damage.

I know from manouvering in calm water what happens if I turn the rudders when reversing at only 3-4 knots. The wheel is spun quite savagely and it takes some effort to stop it from banging onto full lock.

So it seems to me that running the engines and applying power at the critical times would reduce that stress. The propwash over the rudders would help to keep them straight and cancel out some of the reverse flow. It would also help to reduce the stresses on the rode and fittings as the system retensions.

This would only work with boats having the prop in front of the rudder.

Having never been in such conditions, or had the need to deploy a parachute or drogue, I would be interested in the opinions of those who have.
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Old 20-10-2015, 08:32   #50
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Concerning retrieval of a series drogue, it is a simple matter to run a pendant from the drogue to the bow, release the drogue and pull in by hand over the anchor roller as you motor forward. Takes about 15 minutes assuming you can make headway with the motors.

If considering a JSD, I would suggest buying one from Ace Sailmakers or making one yourself out of 4 oz. cloth. Our original drogue, made of 2 oz. cloth, disintegrated after only a few hours of deployment in gale conditions so we are building another. Here is a template I made up if anyone is interested. The depth of the template allows for a 1/4" seam along the leading edge to prevent fraying.
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Old 20-10-2015, 09:09   #51
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Prior poster said

"Ace have merely registered the name Jordan Series Drogue as their trademark, something that Don Jordan would certainly not have approved of."

I read Don Jordan's comments on his web page and he was a big supporter of Ace Sails. My guess is that he gave permission for Ace to use his name. Doesn't mean others might not make good ones, just that Ace did not "steal" the name as was implied.
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Old 20-10-2015, 09:24   #52
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

A Jordan Series Drogue is a life saver. Google it. you will be convinced
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Old 20-10-2015, 14:34   #53
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikereed100 View Post
Concerning retrieval of a series drogue, it is a simple matter to run a pendant from the drogue to the bow, release the drogue and pull in by hand over the anchor roller as you motor forward. Takes about 15 minutes assuming you can make headway with the motors.

If considering a JSD, I would suggest buying one from Ace Sailmakers or making one yourself out of 4 oz. cloth. Our original drogue, made of 2 oz. cloth, disintegrated after only a few hours of deployment in gale conditions so we are building another. Here is a template I made up if anyone is interested. The depth of the template allows for a 1/4" seam along the leading edge to prevent fraying.
Mike,

I remember your mentioning that about your cones in that other thread about cats and series drogues.

Since you guys are doing it yourselves, here's a thought to consider. Try zig-zagging that hem, rather than straight stitching it. I think it will protect the leading edges of the cones better. And, if you think that I"m wrong, please explain why. Thanks.

Ann
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Old 20-10-2015, 16:21   #54
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by Slainte1 View Post
A Jordan Series Drogue is a life saver. Google it. you will be convinced
was reading this on the jsd website and wondering how many tie off at the stern when anchoring or on a mooring. seems odd that it's not so common or did i miss something.. thoughts?

page ends with this quote: There can be little doubt that a proper stern mooring would have saved many of the moored boats that were destroyed in the four hurricanes that struck Florida in the fall of 2004.

Jordan Series Drogue - Mooring and Anchoring
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Old 20-10-2015, 16:52   #55
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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was reading this on the jsd website and wondering how many tie off at the stern when anchoring or on a mooring. seems odd that it's not so common or did i miss something.. thoughts?

Jordan Series Drogue - Mooring and Anchoring
Good question. I have also wondered which way is the best.

One observation. If you anchor in a river or in a place with a tidal or some other stream, tying the anchor to the bow makes sense since the boat will then swim in its natural direction in the water. However, if wind is the dominant force pushing the boat around, then anchoring from the stern could make a lot of sense.

Another reason for anchoring from the bow is of course the fact that boat manufacturers routinely build the boats so that the anchor and anchor winch are at the bow. I'm planning to buy a bigger rear anchor so I can test these theories properly next season (already have a new rode in place). Lifting a heavy anchor would be easier from the bow (the pointy bow is one reason for having the anchor winch there), but luckily my boat is small enough to lift the main anchor manually (maybe even without scratching the sides of my boat's too much). If this works fine, then, maybe I need a new support for the new big anchor at the stern.
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Old 20-10-2015, 16:57   #56
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Wow....someone got out of bed the wrong side.
Please read the part 'about the builder' and 'about the designer' on this page: http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_7.htm
The direct connection to Don Jordan is thereby established. It is also rather presumptious that you claim to know what DJ approves of.
To "merely" register the name? One of the most significant safety devices available and you attempt to reduce its credibility and that of Don Jordans work and his name to 'merely'?
Also re-read my post. You have regurgitated the part about mono's and multi's as well as displacement so that did not add anything.
Did I say a knock off by a professional builder? To suggest that I did is untrue, malicious and defamatory.
At the end of the day this forum is trying to share information and experiences and need not go around trying to show how smart someone can be at someone else's expense. That does not add value. You could have said that there are two other companies manufacturing these series drogues - that would have been easy wouldn't it? It would also have been polite and informative.
Do you have any connection with the manufacturing/supply process in UK that you have not revealed?
Just cool down ..............




Quote:
Originally Posted by englishseadog View Post
Ace Sails are NOT the licence holder for Don Jordan's design. They are one of three main builders of series drogues worldwide. The other two are OCEANBRAKE in the United Kingdom and BRYAN GLOVER in Australia. Ace have merely registered the name Jordan Series Drogue as their trademark, something that Don Jordan would certainly not have approved of. The number of cones in a series drogue is driven by the displacement and whether it is a mono or multihull. Suggesting that any other professional builders produce "knock offs" is both untrue, malicious and defamatory.
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Old 20-10-2015, 17:07   #57
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by Juho View Post
Good question. I have also wondered which way is the best.

One observation. If you anchor in a river or in a place with a tidal or some other stream, tying the anchor to the bow makes sense since the boat will then swim in its natural direction in the water. However, if wind is the dominant force pushing the boat around, then anchoring from the stern could make a lot of sense.

Another reason for anchoring from the bow is of course the fact that boat manufacturers routinely build the boats so that the anchor and anchor winch are at the bow. I'm planning to buy a bigger rear anchor so I can test these theories properly next season (already have a new rode in place). Lifting a heavy anchor would be easier from the bow (the pointy bow is one reason for having the anchor winch there), but luckily my boat is small enough to lift the main anchor manually (maybe even without scratching the sides of my boat's too much). If this works fine, then, maybe I need a new support for the new big anchor at the stern.
We sometimes stern anchor to improve ventilation......
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Old 20-10-2015, 17:20   #58
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Try zig-zagging that hem, rather than straight stitching it. I think it will protect the leading edges of the cones better. And, if you think that I"m wrong, please explain why. Thanks.
Ann,

I don't think you are wrong, just late! We (and by "we" I mean my wife) have finished about half of them with a straight stitch. I'll see if I can get her to try a ziz-zag on the rest.
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Old 20-10-2015, 20:17   #59
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Mike,

I remember your mentioning that about your cones in that other thread about cats and series drogues.

Since you guys are doing it yourselves, here's a thought to consider. Try zig-zagging that hem, rather than straight stitching it. I think it will protect the leading edges of the cones better. And, if you think that I"m wrong, please explain why. Thanks.

Ann

See a zigzag pattern in this video. not on hem though

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Old 18-01-2016, 15:32   #60
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

I too have been doing as much research as I possibly can, trying to make the right decision; parachute or series drogue for my 44' cat. Having never sailed in gail or storm conditions, my decision will be based on the advice of others that have. I have just finished reading the 'secrets of heavy weather sailing' and I have also read numerous Coast Guard reports offering opinions on the difference between the two systems. The trouble is, most of the opinions expressed are based on experience with mono hulls with very little research in relation to cats. Even many of the links on this thread relate to research conducted primarily on monos. The reason the series drogue seems to be favored for monohulls is that a mono will yawl violently when used with a parachute. This gives rise to the probability that the boat will turn broadside to the waves with obvious possibly catastrophic consequences. It seems to me that with a bridle used from the wide bows of a cat, turning broadside is much less likely. Also, the stern of a mono is much more pointy than that of a cat and is therefore not subjected to the same forces that a cat would in breaking waves, so again reading research conducted on monos is of reduced value. I'm not trying to talk myself into one or the other, I am completely open-minded but the major arguments in favour of a drogue over a chute seem to apply only to monos.
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