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Old 19-10-2015, 11:40   #31
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Good memory - so did!

Quote:
Originally Posted by YPSILANTI View Post
If I'm not mistaken, Bulawayo had a series drogue made up for him. Perhaps he can also shed some light on the subject, as can many others, I'm sure.


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Old 19-10-2015, 12:11   #32
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

"Could you........advise which is the best"


They are both best but for different things. I am not arguing for or against either nor for or against the relative merits of running or staying. Each option has to be a decision based upon your experiences, equipment, training, etc. at that moment.


The drogue, as several have mentioned, is great for slowing the boat down when running. It will also allow some steering should you lose your rudder or associated equipment.


The parachute sea anchor, when deployed properly, is great for holding the boat at a good angle to the sea and wind, slowing drift, and preventing waves from breaking on the boat. One individual mentioned heaving to, and this is great in conjunction with a parachute sea anchor. Lin and Larry Pardey have written at length on this and can explain it much better than I. I will say that I have used the parachute sea anchor on occasion and it worked exceptionally well. Please not however that my experience is on a mono-hull. I suspect that a multi-hull will behave quite differently.
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Old 19-10-2015, 12:49   #33
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

I sailed a Lagoon 570 in Med in 40 plus winds for 12 hours,she was nothing like my previous Lagoon 500,we were sitting in the cockpit in comfort legs crossed,we regularly hit 20knots in steep following waves which is very different then 40kn I experienced in Atlantic ocean.
Boat owner told me that he had used his parachute on the way back from Caribbean to Europe in 50kn and in 24 hours they only moved 20miles back and they very much ok
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Old 19-10-2015, 12:51   #34
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

I read this mail about just riding the waves and whole heartedly disagree. Someone does not have respect for their own life to state this.
We have surfed down waves in the high teens and when you get to the bottom there is a period of time when momentum fights bouyancy; your craft cannot keep going downwards ever faster without consequences. That is the time that you also hear your bare rigging thrumming with the strain. The risk of pitch poling is massive and shall happen unless you get the boat speed down. You'll likely also lose your mast due to the massive shock loads.
This is not rocket science and until you really experience it you shall not appreciate the very real fear of not being able to slow down. We once had both engines going full astern in an attempt to slow down - and this is real white knuckles and locked knee's stuff. This is all well recorded and if ANYONE says that a drogue is not needed in these conditions then they shall have just established that they have not experienced poor weather sufficiently. Our worst experience was recorded by the coast guard at steady high 60's / low 70's and gusting into the mid 80's (knots). The waves were horrendous and our wind speed indicator was carried away. Very scary stuff for a while. You can see nothing at all as the air is full of horizontal water that slams into you painfully and the noise is undescribable, conversation is imposible even when shouting at top volume in someones ear. Scary, scary, scary; for a while. We used our drogue and we feel that its contribution was immeasurable. On that occassion two other ocean going boats were lost and one set of crew also. The crew of an Australian steel mono-hull were rescued from their liferaft. We have used our drogue infrequently when subject to severe weather (we try to avoid, but the Indian Ocean can be fearsome at times, like most expanses of water). After a while you accept the conditions and also accept that what you are doing is working and that your vessel is well founded.
I do not wish to belittle others but for anyone to suggest romping along before such weather is providing other people with obviously inadequate information. Get caught in such weather and you'll soon find out what happens as the craft picks up too much speed - sadly, its unlikely you'll be telling others about it afterwards. To give an idea of how we view our drogue contributing to our safety; when we ordered a new one we went with the top of the line drogue with dyneema lines and Tylaska J locks on the bridle. Yes, it was certainly not cheap but the first time we deployed it we knew we had not bought junk on which we were depending to help keep our boat safe.
I have now around 80,000 miles behind me and am not an expert on this subject. However, it anyone reads up on storm tactics (and I have) then you shall find conclusive support that a series drogue is the most favoured method of control. Carry one and use it when conditions deteriorate and you'll never regret the cost the first time you deply it in anger. If you dont have one you'll will regret avoiding paying for one. Never needed one? You are lucky you have not faced the right sea condtions - yet.
I would strongly advocate carrying a drogue, even if its just a 600ft loop of 12mm nylong line with an anchor, and perhaps a car tyre (tire) also on the end. One day you shall be so, so happy to have it.
I have used a parachute and NEVER use one again - having it pop out of a wave face and then experiencing it resetting is a horrible moment. For anyones information we used 450ft of 16mm line on our 12ft parachute and that was on a 35ft cat.
Our Jordan drogue is dimensioned for a 22,000-25,000 lb cat and it works!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
Thanks Don. If in dire straights would you throw a drogue off the stern or a parachute off the bow of a cat? I suppose if your super fatigued a parachute would be best but I really want advise on this. I have face hairy situations on land in my life. From attempted kidnapping, actual kidnapping, running into a burning house to retrieve a person etc. In all situations using my brain and when needing to act, acting is what has saved me. I don't choose to put myself into danger on the water. Of course I will seek to avoid bad weather but given my track record of experiencing life threatening situations I choose to be as best prepared as I can possibly be before going on a long passage.

I am also a great believer in seeking counsel from those with experience and those who have researched the topic. Since this could be a matter of life or death it is worth my while to keep asking even if few know the answer.

I intend to go to sea with a both a drogue and a parachute. I intend to have reinforced attachments in the cats two bows for the parachute and two preferably electric winches on the stern for the drogue. Being female I am worried about the physical strength required to pull in the drogue. I also intend to have the bridles in place and ready for either device to be deployed upon departure for a long passage. Call me paranoid but I do want to live a long life to get my moneys worth out of my boat. :big grin:

So again, thanks for the advise.
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Old 19-10-2015, 13:15   #35
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Hi Chaya, To recover our drogue takes over an hour. We dont have electric winches to pull it in but I am a pretty fit 6'6" 280lb'er that still can run 4.5kms in 22 minutes. I am never in a rush to recover our drogue. Personally, I shall never advocate using a parachute anchor again - I learnt this from my own experience as well as hearing other ocean cruising cats experience and also from all the credible writings that are available - e.g. Hal Roth. We sold our parachute anchor years ago. Another important factor is deployment. A parachute takes time to rig and set and then you must tend to it, from an open, water/wind swept foredeck. A drogue takes all of around one minute to clip on both bridles and then a few seconds to dump the leader in the water. All from the safety of your cockpit; no crawling around on your foredeck.
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Old 19-10-2015, 14:34   #36
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Hi Chaya, To recover our drogue takes over an hour. We dont have electric winches to pull it in but I am a pretty fit 6'6" 280lb'er that still can run 4.5kms in 22 minutes. I am never in a rush to recover our drogue. Personally, I shall never advocate using a parachute anchor again - I learnt this from my own experience as well as hearing other ocean cruising cats experience and also from all the credible writings that are available - e.g. Hal Roth. We sold our parachute anchor years ago. Another important factor is deployment. A parachute takes time to rig and set and then you must tend to it, from an open, water/wind swept foredeck. A drogue takes all of around one minute to clip on both bridles and then a few seconds to dump the leader in the water. All from the safety of your cockpit; no crawling around on your foredeck.
Didn't see any mention in the posts of how many in the series but for my boat a pearson 35, about 100 units is the call, thinking they measure about 2 feet in diameter each. anywhere from $900-1000 online price i've found. good luck
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Old 19-10-2015, 15:10   #37
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Correct; when you get a quote from the licence holder (Dave at Ace sails in the case of the Jordan series drogue) he bases this on the type of boat (in my situation a multi-hull) and the likely displacement. He never mentions the number of cones and that for my purposes is irrelevant. What ever the formula it works. Sure I could go and count the cones but if someone is getting a knock off made then it wont be me that gives them that information. What I can tell you is that 2ft cones is way, way wrong. Examine a Jordan drogue and you'll see there is massive amount of work involved in creating one of these. It may even be made in (dread to say it) China but Dave has checked it out and ensured the quality. Mine has seen live duty so I can vouch for it. A good bit of kit and if you buy one you'll live to pass it along as a family heirloom.
I can look up the total price but all in I think it was around $4k - tho' I stand to be corrected - if someone really wants to know I can check the exact cost and spec. This was for a complete matched kit. I guess everyone is aware of quality kit like using Tylaska J locks. I also have the drawings for both bow and transom attachment points that I inherited years ago.


Quote:
Originally Posted by powsmias View Post
Didn't see any mention in the posts of how many in the series but for my boat a pearson 35, about 100 units is the call, thinking they measure about 2 feet in diameter each. anywhere from $900-1000 online price i've found. good luck
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Old 19-10-2015, 15:16   #38
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Correct; when you get a quote from the licence holder (Dave at Ace sails in the case of the Jordan series drogue) he bases this on the type of boat (in my situation a multi-hull) and the likely displacement. He never mentions the number of cones and that for my purposes is irrelevant. What ever the formula it works. Sure I could go and count the cones but if someone is getting a knock off made then it wont be me that gives them that information. What I can tell you is that 2ft cones is way, way wrong. Examine a Jordan drogue and you'll see there is massive amount of work involved in creating one of these. It may even be made in (dread to say it) China but Dave has checked it out and ensured the quality. Mine has seen live duty so I can vouch for it. A good bit of kit and if you buy one you'll live to pass it along as a family heirloom.
Thanx only put that up in case others thought that maybe 2,10,20 cones would get them by.. sounds like you wouldn't ever go without it. correct? in the middle of gettin my boat ready and had that on and off list but back on again now.
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Old 19-10-2015, 15:33   #39
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

You're utterly correct. This is the number 1 item of safety on our boat, for us. Actually, its probably No. 2 as the anchoring gear is likely No.1 and see's far more use.
In open sea's it is number 1 though, and we would not go without it. The dyneema version with all its line and 'stuff' goes into a large double skin canvas holdall with a very large opening. This protects it from UV. We clip the bridle on as we pull the anchor up. Its as routine as putting on your seat belt and is nearly as quick. My wife can pick the bag up - its not too heavy for her; she cannot lift our Yamaha 25hp two stroke as she is not some hulking Amazonian. If you want to know the weight I can also weigh it but it is the hybrid Dyneema version.
I cannot really recommend one of these highly enough. Fit the aft chain plates securely and you will have the best method of control on a cat that is available and super easy/quick to deploy. If its hard work to deploy then you'll keep delaying and delaying the use of it (read: sea anchor!) and then it shall increase the risk factor to the vessel of setting it up.
We dont see more than 3 knots boat speed with it in use and that was in what I hope was the only weather of that power that I will experience ever again.
Scary stuff.




Quote:
Originally Posted by powsmias View Post
Thanx only put that up in case others thought that maybe 2,10,20 cones would get them by.. sounds like you wouldn't ever go without it. correct? in the middle of gettin my boat ready and had that on and off list but back on again now.
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Old 19-10-2015, 16:38   #40
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Quote:
Originally Posted by powsmias View Post
Didn't see any mention in the posts of how many in the series but for my boat a pearson 35, about 100 units is the call, thinking they measure about 2 feet in diameter each. anywhere from $900-1000 online price i've found. good luck
Sorry for the 2 foot diameter quote actually reading one on ebay at 5" inches diameter... and a lot less than 900-1000 but a little more work involved..sorry all
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Old 19-10-2015, 16:47   #41
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Series drogue information was placed in the public domain - you (apparently) just can't call it a Jordan series drogue.

Instructions: http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/DrogueKit.pdf
Cone full size pattern: http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/droguepattern.pdf
and USCG report: http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/CGDrogueReport.pdf
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Old 19-10-2015, 19:01   #42
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

does anyone run a "trip line" on the series drogue? so you could retrieve it pulling the cones in backwards so they close
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Old 19-10-2015, 20:27   #43
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

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does anyone run a "trip line" on the series drogue? so you could retrieve it pulling the cones in backwards so they close
Was thinking the same thing earlier then after seeing 5 inch diameter the move might be using a boathook at the base of the cone and emptying it out.. seems logical.. might make it a two person op
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Old 19-10-2015, 22:11   #44
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

Quote:
Originally Posted by powsmias View Post
Was thinking the same thing earlier then after seeing 5 inch diameter the move might be using a boathook at the base of the cone and emptying it out.. seems logical.. might make it a two person op
You're pulling hundreds of cones up, so a boat hook on one is just going to tear the cone.

You can do a retrieval line to the center of the bridle to get things going on a winch, and you can lead a "retrieval line" up to the windlass. Once you winch it in, the series drogue will be alongside the boat and you can put a rolling hitch on the furthest back point you can reach. Rinse and repeat one boat length at a time.

I haven't tried that, but read about it from someone who had. Anybody have first hand experience?
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Old 20-10-2015, 02:19   #45
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Re: Drogue or Parachute on a Catamaran in a Gale?

I have never ended up in a gale, so just a few comments based on what I have read.

- Many have survived storms using various (good and bad) tactics. One can get the most honest answers by studying cases where some boats did not make it through the storm.

- Avoid steep and breaking waves (shallow waters and streams), and avoid too much speed (nose diving in the next wave), and reef the sails early enough.

- When seeking for the best solutions, many times the discussion has turned into the series drogue. That would be my solution too for a good life insurance at high seas. Thanks to Bulawayo for some good first hand experiences on differed devices.

- The boat is likely to be more stable (and less likely to break) when going slowly forwards instead of backwards. Waves coming from behind may be a smaller problem.

- Some catamarans can lift the dinghy to the aft deck / cockpit.

- Additional retrieval lines in the drogue could cause problems when deploying or using the drogue. It may be better to avoid all those risks and take the punishment of having to do some more work after the storm.
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