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Old 22-09-2010, 08:57   #46
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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
......what they would have done differently. The answer was 50 foot minimum, mostly for the ability to carry gear, speed and comfort.
As it by now probably is widely known: I couldn't agree more!
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Old 22-09-2010, 09:18   #47
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What we need on this forum is one of those Behavioral Economist dudes.

I read this book by some joker about tall thin bottles being better than short fat ones because we are so stupid we think you get more Coke in a small thin bottle...

Anyway, thats what we need here. Someone who can say "Its all economics... if you only have enough money for a 35 footer you will tell all those with a 40 footer he's being ripped off"

The cost difference between my boat and a 60 footer per year is NOT a 'real' cost. why? Because to have the 60 footer I must have more money than the 40 footer, or I would have had to buy the 40.

Also cost difference for a marina is not viable either. why? Because a poorer person will spend less time in a marina anyway (no matter the size of boat). Or the richer person if the costs cant be justified.

in the last few months slumming around the anchorages of the Med I notice there were a LOT of super yachts sitting at anchor. Why? Because the owner wasn't on board and he didnt want to pay stupidly high fees when the crew can sit on the frickin pick and commute to shore in a dink.

So our behavioral economist when advising you on your boat size will probably need to do it in your own home. Whats your home like? A large house? A modern big apartment? Or a shoe-box size studio where your bed slides out from the wall? Or a hovel in a dump that stinks of last weeks rotting dishwashing.

The economist will then tell you exactly what size boat is best for you.



From Wikipaedia: Behavioral economics and its related area of study, behavioral finance, use social, cognitive and emotional factors in understanding the economic decisions of individuals and institutions performing economic functions, including consumers, borrowers and investors, and their effects on market prices, returns and the resource allocation. The fields are primarily concerned with the bounds of rationality (selfishness, self-control) of economic agents. Behavioral models typically integrate insights from psychology with neo-classical economic theory.
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Old 22-09-2010, 10:03   #48
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Hi Mark, sounds like things are going well. Glad you had a good trip to the Canaries.

I don't know how much sway behavioral economics has when it comes to picking a cruising boat. Case in point, my in-laws could have afforded a larger boat but choose to sail the 35. Why? At inception they felt it was large enough for the intended use, later on they felt otherwise.

It seems to me the decision to sail a particular size or style boat is not made easily or lightly and while economics certainly plays a part in the decision it is not the only facet of the decision.

Cheers,

Joli

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
What we need on this forum is one of those Behavioral Economist dudes.

I read this book by some joker about tall thin bottles being better than short fat ones because we are so stupid we think you get more Coke in a small thin bottle...

Anyway, thats what we need here. Someone who can say "Its all economics... if you only have enough money for a 35 footer you will tell all those with a 40 footer he's being ripped off"

The cost difference between my boat and a 60 footer per year is NOT a 'real' cost. why? Because to have the 60 footer I must have more money than the 40 footer, or I would have had to buy the 40.

Also cost difference for a marina is not viable either. why? Because a poorer person will spend less time in a marina anyway (no matter the size of boat). Or the richer person if the costs cant be justified.

in the last few months slumming around the anchorages of the Med I notice there were a LOT of super yachts sitting at anchor. Why? Because the owner wasn't on board and he didnt want to pay stupidly high fees when the crew can sit on the frickin pick and commute to shore in a dink.

So our behavioral economist when advising you on your boat size will probably need to do it in your own home. Whats your home like? A large house? A modern big apartment? Or a shoe-box size studio where your bed slides out from the wall? Or a hovel in a dump that stinks of last weeks rotting dishwashing.

The economist will then tell you exactly what size boat is best for you.



From Wikipaedia: Behavioral economics and its related area of study, behavioral finance, use social, cognitive and emotional factors in understanding the economic decisions of individuals and institutions performing economic functions, including consumers, borrowers and investors, and their effects on market prices, returns and the resource allocation. The fields are primarily concerned with the bounds of rationality (selfishness, self-control) of economic agents. Behavioral models typically integrate insights from psychology with neo-classical economic theory.
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Old 22-09-2010, 10:51   #49
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Also when looking at some of the stanchions of smaller boats I shudder upon the imagination of being thrown against them in a sudden violent move of the boat. What are the odds that those will prevent me from being washed over board?!
You have the option of sliding 2 feet and hitting the stanchion (small boat) vs. sliding twenty feet and then hitting the stanchion (big boat). Calculate the resulting forces by yourself.

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Speed on the other hand is not a factor. Unlike suggested in an other thread here (southernspeed's) I dont believe a sec. that one can actually outrun a gale. So when it hits, it hits and I'd prefer to be on a boat that I know can take any such beating for days and days and days if it needs be.
Unless you are sailing a fast boat against a tropical system. The boat will sail beyond 10 knots while the system will be maybe 300 miles across with some 200 miles of the 'bad' quadrant.

A fast boat CAN escape a bad tropical weather system. It can also position better in a non tropical system. It can also sail before the weather much more efficiently than any heavy clunker.

Off course, it takes a skilled crew and good weather awareness.

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As to the effort it takes to handle larger sail areas, I really dont see that. Small boats have single-speed winches, larger ones have 3-speed selftailing. So the amount of strength needed to handle probably even decreases!
My experience from a Laser dinghy versus a 54 catamaran does not prove your point. In any case, I will call you up next time we need to reef that main in a downwind squall ;-)

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Old 22-09-2010, 16:37   #50
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To me it seems there's a lot of guys here on ego trips....
I've sailed Dhows in the Arabian sea... owned boats up to 37ft... my last 'Big' boat was a 2001 Beneteau 331... after that I had a Hurley 22... Icelandic reasons... currently I sail a Corribee 21... my 14th boat....
I'm 6ft 2in tall and OK I'm a slender 12stone and the Corribee's got 4ft 6in headroom... who cares... but when crossing the Biscay, ghosting in a F2 at around 3kts I was passed by a 38 Moody who'd been motoring for 3 days to get where I'd got for free...lmao... yeah size does matter... how big is your wallet.
What I guess I'm saying is there are some of us who will sail any size.... its the sailing that counts... not the PENIS SIZE.
All this crap about big boats are safer in a storm is just that... CRAP... its not the boat... its the man on it.
All this macho crap about how big a sail you can hoist is just that... Macho Crap..
People buy a boat that they think will suit their needs... later they find its to small.. some maybe find its to big for their needs...
As far as I'm concerned someone who singlehands but feels a 60ftr is the minimum suitable for them has a serious problem.. what I'm not quite sure... to much money... to many paranoias..
And yes Ex-Calif... I'm sippin the Vino again...
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Old 22-09-2010, 19:23   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
To me it seems there's a lot of guys here on ego trips....
I've sailed Dhows in the Arabian sea... owned boats up to 37ft... my last 'Big' boat was a 2001 Beneteau 331... after that I had a Hurley 22... Icelandic reasons... currently I sail a Corribee 21... my 14th boat....
I'm 6ft 2in tall and OK I'm a slender 12stone and the Corribee's got 4ft 6in headroom... who cares... but when crossing the Biscay, ghosting in a F2 at around 3kts I was passed by a 38 Moody who'd been motoring for 3 days to get where I'd got for free...lmao... yeah size does matter... how big is your wallet.
What I guess I'm saying is there are some of us who will sail any size.... its the sailing that counts... not the PENIS SIZE.
All this crap about big boats are safer in a storm is just that... CRAP... its not the boat... its the man on it.
All this macho crap about how big a sail you can hoist is just that... Macho Crap..
People buy a boat that they think will suit their needs... later they find its to small.. some maybe find its to big for their needs...
As far as I'm concerned someone who singlehands but feels a 60ftr is the minimum suitable for them has a serious problem.. what I'm not quite sure... to much money... to many paranoias..
And yes Ex-Calif... I'm sippin the Vino again...
Wow – an up-front and well written dose of reality from an experienced cruiser? Give us more please!
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Old 22-09-2010, 19:59   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
To me it seems there's a lot of guys here on ego trips....
I've sailed Dhows in the Arabian sea... owned boats up to 37ft... my last 'Big' boat was a 2001 Beneteau 331... after that I had a Hurley 22... Icelandic reasons... currently I sail a Corribee 21... my 14th boat....
I'm 6ft 2in tall and OK I'm a slender 12stone and the Corribee's got 4ft 6in headroom... who cares... but when crossing the Biscay, ghosting in a F2 at around 3kts I was passed by a 38 Moody who'd been motoring for 3 days to get where I'd got for free...lmao... yeah size does matter... how big is your wallet.
What I guess I'm saying is there are some of us who will sail any size.... its the sailing that counts... not the PENIS SIZE.
All this crap about big boats are safer in a storm is just that... CRAP... its not the boat... its the man on it.
All this macho crap about how big a sail you can hoist is just that... Macho Crap..
People buy a boat that they think will suit their needs... later they find its to small.. some maybe find its to big for their needs...
As far as I'm concerned someone who singlehands but feels a 60ftr is the minimum suitable for them has a serious problem.. what I'm not quite sure... to much money... to many paranoias..
And yes Ex-Calif... I'm sippin the Vino again...
... you may find a few here who think it's the woman who's on the boat that matters ... oh and if you had a bigger boat you wouldn't need to write penis size in caps
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Old 22-09-2010, 20:10   #53
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... you may find a few here who think it's the woman who's on the boat that matters ... oh and if you had a bigger boat you wouldn't need to write penis size in caps
Hummingway the capitals are just envy... ever since that wire hawser snapped
Also... I've found the woman usually thinks its the man on the boat that matters... if they've faith in you they'll sail anywhere with you in anything....

PS; I don't have a FERRARI either.... but the same applies
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Old 23-09-2010, 02:35   #54
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... I'm sippin the Vino again...
Cheers & enjoy!

Other than that I sort of envy you for your ability to simplify things that way.
In other words: Life boils down to "Penis-Size" and "Money"?

Lets skip the first part, last time I was comparing the size of private parts was when I was ....uhmm ... still in my early teens, - so VERY long ago! :-)

Leaves the second part.
Unless one would be foolish enough to buy a new boat - prices of used boats differ so greatly that for the same 100K (i.e.) you could buy a 30' tupperware
2003 Elan 31 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
with an average equipment list
as well as a 50' solid steel yacht
1978 Transpac Custom Pilothouse Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
even if that one might need a little TLC (but at least one would get to really know the boat prior to setting sails)

To me that sounds like "making choices" and not like "how much money do I have". No?

Same when it comes to maintenance: I bet the knowledgable live-a-board cruiser/owner of a 50'er will spend less in upkeep than the weekend sailing banker on his 30'er... So again, this does sound to me like "choices" and not like "money". No?

Which really was the reason for me starting this thread, because I am very interested in the choices(!) people make and their reasons (and experiences afterwards!) and surely not because I would be interested in anyones net-worth.

Also "having money" often enough does not correspond with "being willing to spend money" (actually frequently on the contrary!) - I have an uncle who could be considered "filthy rich" but he can ramble on of hours about the prices of a bottle of vine in one shop vs. from another shop.
Now here we are talking about character-issues (without any intention to judge) - I i.e. am the type of person who only drinks on rare occasions so if I buy a bottle of vine - there is reason to enjoy some particular moment in life and in such case I simply dont care about the price of that one bottle.... *ahm* Catch my drift?

So, even when a very simplified view on life does make the very same a lot easier (or so I would imagine) - I don't see how such an approach could ever peel the layers of truth off the onion of life. :-)
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Old 23-09-2010, 04:03   #55
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And there's where we differ.....
If I had 100k (GBP or $..?)... I'd go for something like this in plastic.....
http://yachts.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=166386

But more likely I'd buy this....
http://www.bviyachtsales.com/core/listing/pl_boat_full_detail.jsp?slim=broker&boat_id=177926 2&ybw=&hosturl=bviyachtsales&&ywo=bviyachtsales&&u nits=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=1469&url=&hostu rl=bviyachtsales&&ywo=bviyachtsales&

Which would leave loadsa dosh for Portuguse vine....
Its this "You cant get a decent ready to go cruising boat for less than 100k" attitude that amuses me.... there's 100's of them out there...
But then I guess my 'Ready to Go' and yours are miles apart...
I'd sail off in either of the above in a flash... and would fix any niggly things on the move so to speak...
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Old 23-09-2010, 06:53   #56
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And there's where we differ.....
If I had 100k (GBP or $..?)...
(a) it was an example (EXAMPLE) for a price-range I at the time of posting was browsing thru....
(b) how come U R so aggressive? Not enough vino or too short elsewhere?

chill, and please stop being so judgemental or jumping to conclusions all the time - for I really dont understand why you feel you have to ridicule me? I could post to your thread where you are looking for a job as skipper that according to your own statements the largest you have sailed has been a 31' and ask the question if you really think you are up to delivering a decent sized boat, - but that I did not do. So just chill and as happy I am to learn the opinions of others, I really don't care for your "macho-show-off" attitude.

peace!
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Old 23-09-2010, 07:47   #57
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The difference between 30 and 50 feet asuming a similar qualilty might be another decade sat in an office working for someone else to pay for it.

Thanks, but I will take the smaller boat, the smaller pension and go earlier

Pete
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Old 23-09-2010, 08:50   #58
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I dont have but a few years experience, but for what it's worth we bought small, love the boat, can afford the boat, can do most repairs ourselves, and spend half the year on it. We have been caught in rough seas and we were confident we would be just fine, and we were. Having a huge boat (50ft or more) would just plain scare me as a woman. Small space means always having a handrail nearby, easy to cook in the small galley underway, always knowing where everything is because the boat only carries exactly what we need, its just simple. I understand some people need a little more space. Its a boat not a condo. You should only get BIG boats if plan to have a lot of people in your company, or your just rich and you feel the need to advertise.. or if you are claustrophobic. But guys seriously its really not about the size , its more about what you plan to do with it
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Old 23-09-2010, 12:08   #59
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How big yours is is of no concern to me.

Unless I am sitting on it

But back to boats...........

I suspect that part of the reason is differing definitions of "afford".

At one end have "shrug the shoulders if hits a rock. or gets lost in a game of cards "..................and at the other end is "sign a HP form with yer fingers crossed. and worry about it all later".

But each to their own
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Old 23-09-2010, 13:54   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustThinking View Post
(a) it was an example (EXAMPLE) for a price-range I at the time of posting was browsing thru....
(b) how come U R so aggressive? Not enough vino or too short elsewhere?

chill, and please stop being so judgemental or jumping to conclusions all the time - for I really dont understand why you feel you have to ridicule me? I could post to your thread where you are looking for a job as skipper that according to your own statements the largest you have sailed has been a 31' and ask the question if you really think you are up to delivering a decent sized boat, - but that I did not do. So just chill and as happy I am to learn the opinions of others, I really don't care for your "macho-show-off" attitude.

peace!

Opps... sorry if I offended... the biggest I've owned is 37..
Been on bigger but was not the skipper..(sail) though I was licenced for vessels with up to 240 persons...
Most if not all my comments that I post are tongue in cheek... and a lot of times I type before the brains in gear... wot brain..?
So if you took it to heart I apologise..
I write how i speak... but sadly the wind up grin doesn't show on the Ethernet... a few here have learnt to recognise it...
You may think my attitudes macho but I'm not macho... egotistic, pompous.. arrogant...sometimes.. I'll go with that.. but macho... that goes to far...

Basically I could just be an *******....
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