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Old 14-08-2009, 11:14   #46
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Originally Posted by Stillraining View Post
I second Eleven's Post...you have to be able to look past some dirt to see the diamond in the rough...You are shopping for a used boat afterall !...We took 1 year to find our boat ..we new it was the one almost instantly...Still very happy with the purchase..just not the circumstances involved.

My biggest gripe with buyers is they want a perfect new condition boat for a used beat up price.
Your last line sounds like the chant of Every Seller out there...
me included.


Never, EVER expect to "get Your money back" unless it was an almost worthless hulk when you began the project, AND YOU "Stole it". Even then be careful on the "upgrades"...1 man's(or woman's)highly sought after "widget"...is viewed as a PITA by some buyers. I avoid electronics upgrades as a flat out RULE...unless it's my keeper. Nobody is EVER satisfied with YOUR Choices. The less of them made (besides cushion materials, etc. relying on a wife for such details) the better. Price accordingly w/serviceable, but sometimes "antique" electronics, always has worked for me.
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Old 17-08-2009, 17:37   #47
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If the buyer makes a lowball offer, the seller always has the option of saying no, or making a counter offer.

BTW, you won't find the "perfect" boat, even if you shop for 10 years. And you won't find the perfect bargain either. Find one that's reasonable and buy it. Then go sailing.

I paid 90% of asking to get a newer, fully equipped boat in good condition and then I paid even more to upgrade the electronics. From a market perspective I probably paid too much, but from a personal perspective it was worth every penny, especially when I use one of the monogrammed towels or debate which one of the three genoas I want to put on the furler.

If a buyer has a well equipped "perfect condition new boat" it will sell for close to asking. If you don't, it won't, and you shouldn't expect otherwise.
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Old 27-08-2009, 12:12   #48
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UPDATE ---

As I was reminded in another thread that updates are of interest, I am doing that now. After looking at literally dozens of boats over the past 18 months, then looking hard at 12 boats (using Don Casey's inspection book as a guide) we placed an offer on a boat.



For us, it came down to these critical items.
  1. It had to be in the budget we set. If our budget is wrong, then we needed to start over. This avoided the “just another $10k and you are going to be in so much better...). The amount we had agreed on was set by our finances with 20% for the unexpected.
  2. It had to be ready to use, with minimal initial work required. No project boats.
  3. It had to be serviceable. Meaning, if something went wrong, it was something we could fix or live without until a professional could be engaged.
  4. It had to be a boat that was reasonably thought of in the industry. (No “one of a kind” type).
  5. It had to have enough room for four of us to be comfortable (very subjective until you get on a boat in it together).
  6. Given our planned use, it needed to have in it or the have the option to install both heat & A/C (special needs applied to this one) so the cost of those had to be considered.
  7. Paul's “gut feel” of how we liked the boat when we saw it had to be very positive. “OK” or “It will do” was not good enough.
  8. The owner had to at least appear to have cared about the boat. (Surprising is three (not counted above) were eliminated by brokers when I mentioned this one).
The offer was accepted on Monday and we had the Survey (boat and engine) today. We used two surveyors recommended by several people from this forum. (Steve Uhthoff is the marine surveyor. Chris Oliver is the marine engine surveyor.)


What made this boat stand out?
Illogic. How is that for an answer? The owner bought the boat and rebuilt about the entire thing. All the wood redone, desk fiberglass, engine replaced, brand new rigging, sails (still in the packages from the maker), full cover, electric, hot water, etc. He appeared to have more than the value of the boat in improvements, before considering labor.


So, this gave us a boat well outside our budget because it was priced to sell due to a bankruptcy. Anything else we looked at in the same condition, and character was easily $20,0000 more.


One of the unique features of a Niagara is a cored hull as well as deck. A note from a couple of Niagara owners was to watch for a wet core as that is a serious issue on these boats. So everyone was suprised when sadly, that is exactly what they found in less than an hour. A roughly 3'x12' section below the starboard waterline and incursions around the chain plates, as well as random(?) spots of moisture elsewhere.


Steve and Chris were great about it. We canceled the sea trial and even the broker was good about it given the extent of the issue. I am unsure what they owner's options are given this would appear to be a large recovery investment. $15-$20k was a guess.

So, we are back into the field again, looking at other options as we try to find our boat. I want to thank everyone who has provided feedback on the process as we are further, and while I wish it had worked out. The value of a survey is sometimes ensuring you don't buy an anchor with a boat attached. I am guessing this is going to be a project boat or donation for someone.
1982 Hinterhoeller Niagara 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

It is hard when you get this close - not to want to love the boat first - thankfully we fought the urge.

- Cheers.
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Old 27-08-2009, 12:22   #49
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Bummer, Kefaa. But you did everything right, so you are definitely on the right track.
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Old 27-08-2009, 12:37   #50
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Tough, but don't forget the purpose of a survey is to try and find what's wrong with a boat, not what's right with it. Others might have said, "Wow, this is the boat for me!" and never bothered with the expense of a survey - Buyer beware.
Forget it and plod on - you will get there in the end .
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Old 27-08-2009, 13:30   #51
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I agree with both of you. It is a bummer - but it is the point of a survey and talking with them, it is unlikely I would have discovered this on my own. It's location, etc. made it less than obvious (unless of course you have the trained eye.) But, as Jimmy say's "breathe in, breathe out, move on."
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Old 27-08-2009, 13:54   #52
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oh, I am so glad you have got to the stage where you are ready to commit. It sucks that the first commitment out the gate was a no go, but you are on the right track...

good work!
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Old 27-08-2009, 17:54   #53
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Thanks for the update...she is out here..................................somewhere.
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Old 27-08-2009, 18:13   #54
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Everything (& That's EVERY THING) happens for a reason...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefaa View Post
I agree with both of you. It is a bummer - but it is the point of a survey and talking with them, it is unlikely I would have discovered this on my own. It's location, etc. made it less than obvious (unless of course you have the trained eye.) But, as Jimmy say's "breathe in, breathe out, move on."
IT really does (happen for a reason)...You won't understand it until later, when a "more" perfect specimen comes along, yet it's out there, You may or may not know about it yet, and You'll know Why You needed to wait on this one when You find that "One".

Be thankful for all the advice regarding cored Niagara hulls & be thankful that $20k's worth of work didn't get "bought". All the brand new sails in the world are just an additional disappointment while Your new baby sits on stands on the hard getting dried out and filled with epoxy. You didn't buy a problem.

You will find the right "one" and now You know it won't have been "luck".
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Old 27-08-2009, 22:31   #55
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Wow, cored below the waterline? That is very risky and usually ends in financial disaster. Ocean racers tried that technique many years ago and few of them ever finished their races as the hulls delaminated enroute.
- - Whatever costs you had in researching and inspecting this boat - put it down in your personal accounts ledger as "educational expenses" - and well worth every penny considering the knowledge you gained which can be applied to your next opportunity.
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Old 27-08-2009, 22:50   #56
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Wow, cored below the waterline? That is very risky and usually ends in financial disaster. Ocean racers tried that technique many years ago and few of them ever finished their races as the hulls delaminated enroute.
- - Whatever costs you had in researching and inspecting this boat - put it down in your personal accounts ledger as "educational expenses" - and well worth every penny considering the knowledge you gained which can be applied to your next opportunity.
There are not that many cored hulls below the waterline. J-Boats, Hinterhoeller are two that I know of that have cored hulls in some (all maybe?) of their boats. I guess the thing to do when looking at these boats is know that there is coring below the waterline and try to examine for delamination before hiring a surveyor. Tapping the hull will tell you by sound.

If that's not possible, look for delamination early in the survey and cancel the rest of the survey as was done in this case.
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Old 30-08-2009, 20:28   #57
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Quote:
It is hard when you get this close - not to want to love the boat first - thankfully we fought the urge

It's OK to leave them at the alter. Don't fall in love until after the closing. I can see how you hated for it to not be the one. It means you can find the right boat.

Of your requirements:

Quote:
2. It had to be ready to use, with minimal initial work required. No project boats.
No project boats would be a clear YES. There are no minimial work boats so you may need to deal with that part a little. They are all a lot of work. It's why the No Project boats rule is wise. Treading water is easier when not standing on your head holding the anchor.

Keep the search up - you have already learned a great deal.
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Old 30-08-2009, 21:39   #58
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Why not check this one out?

Another "Niagra" 35 in Maine - roughly same price (May not have shown up if you searched "Niagara")

1985 Hinterhoeller Niagra 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 31-08-2009, 08:36   #59
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Defining minimal...

Paul - you make an excellent point. I define minimal as being sailable, while more significant repairs, and enhancements are on-going. Spending the first year of ownership making it sailable is too long for us. While it can be difficult to draw the line - recoring 36 sq ft. below the water line made it easy and we were glad.

Ishmael - The additions and enhancements available to us made the risk of the core worth the effort. However, with so many other choices, I would go in another direction. Which is sending me back to the Catalinas, IPs, and Moodys. A broker even sent me a listing for Hallberg-Rassy. As a 1972 - my mind is having a hard time with a boat gaining on my age.

I keep hearing this is the best buyer's market in decades so I am hoping to see more opportunities soon - especially with the end of the season upon us in the Mid-Atlantic and North east.
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Old 31-08-2009, 09:06   #60
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There are plenty of Niagaras around if that's the boat you want. Personally I prefer the configuration with forepeak workshop/sail locker, but most prefer the v-berth. Nice boats, if you can find one with a sound hull and deck.

Walking away after a bad survey shouldn't be a bummer. That is a good outcome; the "bummer" would have been buying the boat and incurring significant repair costs. Even if the seller is willing to lower the price to cover repairs, there is still the hassle of finding someone to do the work and making sure it is done right.
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