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Old 08-08-2009, 11:08   #31
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Sorry - I should have mentioned two of those 12 were for sale by owner and one more I am looking at this week. I got started on brokers and forgot to make the distinction.

No sale pending yet. I am working with one owner and his broker but we have not come to a meeting of the minds. I continue to look as this could be nothing.

I have been using a link found on this site to search multiple Craig's lists at once.(crazedlist.org : search craigslist like a madman). If you know a more efficient way to find "by owner" sales, I am game. My common search places are:
New and Used Yachts for Sale - YachtWorld.com
New and Used Boats For Sale
Yachts for Sale/Boats for Sale Search - New/Used/Pre-owned - Worldwide - BUCNET.COM
Sail Boat Trader - New and Used Sailboats for sale.
Sailboat Listings - sailboats for sale
New Boats And Used Boats For Sale By Owner And From Dealers
Sailboats for sale, Sailboat Classifieds, sailboat for sale by owners and dealers (they list boats outside Texas too)
SailboatOwners.com - Home
Used Boats For Sale & New Boats For Sale - Boatsville Used Boats

and a few others...
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:18   #32
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I believe the issue I am having is the owner is difficult to reach. It just occurred to me, that it could be an estate too. Everything seems to take three days to resolve and I am willing to let it go for now, because I continue to look. It also makes me certain to put time limits on anything (especially offers) if/when the time comes.
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Old 08-08-2009, 12:23   #33
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I did use Inspecting the aging sailboat. The exception was I am unwilling to use a knife or screw driver on the fiberglass to check it. I figure if I am serious, then I can have the actual serveyor do that if necessary.

As for sale by owner - so far, they had the worst boats, they thought were better than the most. I did not want to be the one to tell them that soft spots, leaking ports, etc. are major issues. "Just a little chaulk with fix that..." If so, why didn't you - before the damage was done? Now I may be a little unfair, having only spoken to two, but you did get the feeling any comment was akin to calling their kids ugly.
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Old 08-08-2009, 13:10   #34
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Sorry - I should have mentioned two of those 12 were for sale by owner and one more I am looking at this week. I got started on brokers and forgot to make the distinction.

No sale pending yet. I am working with one owner and his broker but we have not come to a meeting of the minds. I continue to look as this could be nothing.

I have been using a link found on this site to search multiple Craig's lists at once.(crazedlist.org : search craigslist like a madman). If you know a more efficient way to find "by owner" sales, I am game. My common search places are:
New and Used Yachts for Sale - YachtWorld.com
New and Used Boats For Sale
Yachts for Sale/Boats for Sale Search - New/Used/Pre-owned - Worldwide - BUCNET.COM
Sail Boat Trader - New and Used Sailboats for sale.
Sailboat Listings - sailboats for sale
New Boats And Used Boats For Sale By Owner And From Dealers
Sailboats for sale, Sailboat Classifieds, sailboat for sale by owners and dealers (they list boats outside Texas too)
SailboatOwners.com - Home
Used Boats For Sale & New Boats For Sale - Boatsville Used Boats

and a few others...
Also try ebay:

Sail boats, Used Boats, Sail Boat for Sale, Used Sailboat on eBay Motors
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Old 08-08-2009, 13:14   #35
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I did use Inspecting the aging sailboat. The exception was I am unwilling to use a knife or screw driver on the fiberglass to check it. I figure if I am serious, then I can have the actual serveyor do that if necessary.

As for sale by owner - so far, they had the worst boats, they thought were better than the most. I did not want to be the one to tell them that soft spots, leaking ports, etc. are major issues. "Just a little chaulk with fix that..." If so, why didn't you - before the damage was done? Now I may be a little unfair, having only spoken to two, but you did get the feeling any comment was akin to calling their kids ugly.
Yes, the FSBO population generally includes a lot of bad boats but there are some very nice ones as well. You can find some particularly good deals from the charitable organizations (mostly on ebay), who will sell good boats at very favorable prices for buyers.
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Old 08-08-2009, 16:35   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefaa View Post
I did use Inspecting the aging sailboat. The exception was I am unwilling to use a knife or screw driver on the fiberglass to check it. I figure if I am serious, then I can have the actual serveyor do that if necessary.

As for sale by owner - so far, they had the worst boats, they thought were better than the most. I did not want to be the one to tell them that soft spots, leaking ports, etc. are major issues. "Just a little chaulk with fix that..." If so, why didn't you - before the damage was done? Now I may be a little unfair, having only spoken to two, but you did get the feeling any comment was akin to calling their kids ugly.
The seller greatly appreciates that..if you were to do that to my boat Id thorugh you overboard...The corect way is to tap the glass with a phenolic hammer...and very lightly at that.

Good Luck
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Old 08-08-2009, 19:42   #37
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No knives please...

I felt the same way - If I wouldn't want someone doing it to my boat, I am certainly not going to do it to theirs. In this case, he suggested it for checking the tabs to the bulkhead, etc were still secured to the hull. Regardless - a better educated hand would need to do that.
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Old 08-08-2009, 19:58   #38
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I am tempted to start another thread on this, but I will use this one for now.

I was contacted by a broker that has a Hinterhoeller Niagara 35 coming onto the market. It was under contract, finanacing fell through... all I know now is mid-1980s, asking in 60s.

I did some research but if you have first hand experience with a Niagara 35, I would be curious to know your thoughts. Ellis and Hinterhoeller seem to be respected names and the boat seems to have a good reputation.
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Old 09-08-2009, 14:52   #39
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Kefaa,

It really seems you have go into the action of looking and aside from doing a lot of pre work first came with an inspection approach to dig into boats. I'm not sure it has to be that complete to get the list down but it does need to be organized and you need to keep written notes or all the boats blend together.

You need to walk away from every boat and say we are sure about a few more things now and why we liked some things and really didn't liked others. It's all pretty subjective but of course the things you find out also help you to look at boats. You can get too technical and suddenly feel you can find the perfect boat. You have to ewatch that the best boat you ever saw was several boats ago and it's now sold. The calendar is not kind to boats, buyers, or sellers. You all chase one moment in time.

The Niagara 35 could be a nice boat and a wise choice. A Bayfield would be another similar boat from Canada. Pretty solid construction. It takes some good inspection with mid 80's boats though. If well cared for it could be the one. I like to think people know it when they see it. It's come up here enough to think so. You look at boats often get down to making choices that don't pan out and then you see the one and just know it even f you then do all the right things you are supposed to do and in the end feel like you didn't have to do all that. Of course you still do. Learning how to look makes it easier to find the right one.

It looks like you know the basic first lesson in used boats - don't fall in love until after the wedding. You may need to leave her at the alter.
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Old 09-08-2009, 18:16   #40
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Originally Posted by Kefaa View Post
I am tempted to start another thread on this, but I will use this one for now.

I was contacted by a broker that has a Hinterhoeller Niagara 35 coming onto the market. It was under contract, finanacing fell through... all I know now is mid-1980s, asking in 60s.

I did some research but if you have first hand experience with a Niagara 35, I would be curious to know your thoughts. Ellis and Hinterhoeller seem to be respected names and the boat seems to have a good reputation.
I am familiar with the Nonsuch 30 and 36, also built by Hinterhoeller I am pretty sure, and perhaps designed by Ellis also. They are high quality boats, very well built and they seem to hold their value very well. One thing that concerned me about the Nonsuch was the cored hulls.

Ellis designs very nice cruisers.

I don't know the Niagara 35 except by reputation.

I'd certainly explore it although priced in the 60's seems a bit high for this market unless it's in great shape and very well equipped.
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Old 10-08-2009, 20:25   #41
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Kefaa, Determination is a Wonderful Thing yet must be Tempered...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pblais View Post
Kefaa,

It really seems you have go into the action of looking and aside from doing a lot of pre work first came with an inspection approach to dig into boats. I'm not sure it has to be that complete to get the list down but it does need to be organized and you need to keep written notes or all the boats blend together.

You need to walk away from every boat and say we are sure about a few more things now and why we liked some things and really didn't liked others. It's all pretty subjective but of course the things you find out also help you to look at boats. You can get too technical and suddenly feel you can find the perfect boat. You have to ewatch that the best boat you ever saw was several boats ago and it's now sold. The calendar is not kind to boats, buyers, or sellers. You all chase one moment in time.

The Niagara 35 could be a nice boat and a wise choice. A Bayfield would be another similar boat from Canada. Pretty solid construction. It takes some good inspection with mid 80's boats though. If well cared for it could be the one. I like to think people know it when they see it. It's come up here enough to think so. You look at boats often get down to making choices that don't pan out and then you see the one and just know it even f you then do all the right things you are supposed to do and in the end feel like you didn't have to do all that. Of course you still do. Learning how to look makes it easier to find the right one.

It looks like you know the basic first lesson in used boats - don't fall in love until after the wedding. You may need to leave her at the alter.
Paul again got it right on so many fronts in the "searching"(& LEARNING What You like & don't) process that I hit the thought to be MOST Important points for You to take from this process...
1-Note what You learned from each inspection, each broker, each seller, configurations You like (& don't like), make a LIST of the "+'s" & "-'s" of each boat, don't let them become a BLUR (which becomes REALLY Easy after a couple dozen, which me thinks You're Long past at this point in the total count viewed on line at a minimum)...Hit "Print" on the online listings...nothing worse than the "light coming on" & a decision that 14 boats back was an awesome opportunity, only You can't even remember the name now?
2-It's a learning curve & You're catching up...didn't know You were checking out CL, or would have furnished the link to search multiple locations, most of the other links are excellent, don't rule out "Ebay''... Be SURE to scroll down and READ the Questions and HOW they are answered by the sellers/sellers agents...You'll be amazed at both the ignorance AND intellect of the question posters, And You'll Be AMAZED at both categories of the responses on the part of the sellers...including some who don't know, Say So, and worse say "come look for Yourself, I don't have time to answer all these stupid questions!" (welcome to selling a multi-thousand dollar venture, deal with the buyers, or don't wind up with one)
3-As for the Niagara 35's very nice boat, IF You want a serious sea-going blue water vessel, about the only complaint I ever had (in or out of the water) was the rudder design & exposure..."the weakest link" in my opinion only, of an otherwise bombproof vessel. Re-rigged 1 dismasted after a hurricane about 20 years ago. Heavier rigged than most it didn't matter when pushed in to a pile w/bigger vessels. Owner decided to go even heavier than formerly rigged. Renewed with a removable inner forestay for storm or other jibs (hank on) just aft of the RF Genoa on the head. Got to spend a little time below...VERY well designed and BUILT boats...wouldn't hesitate once comfortable w/a particular vessel of this model & builder to sail ANYWHERE; "Overbuilt"(If there IS such a thing) is a good adjective. Other vessels had been holed, and SUNK by the 1 I re-rigged, bigger, smaller, didn't matter solid construction wins in any "confrontation" & they definitely have it "going on".
4-Only concern is that as this thread started, You stated the broker's represented listing price on this vessel is ABOVE your "top end limits" on the budget? It's not a "bad(or too expensive)price for 1 of these depending of course on equipment, powerplant, & vessel overall's condition, inventory of sails, etc. Never expect "sail-away" condition and never expect "perfect"...even if You spent MORE than YOUR maximum...it doesn't matter to the seller. Something is always wrong, or unsatisfactory for Your purposes...will need to be changed/upgraded, whatever...it ALL, ALWAYS Costs money. Leave 10-15% of Your maximum to spend, IN YOUR Pocket, for there will be un-noticed issues as well that need to be dealt with...it happens, almost always. No "reserves" & You're skating on the thin ice, never a wise move.
5-Perhaps the broker knows the seller is willing to concede significantly on price at this point? (My first question on brokerage listed anything...houses/boats = "How many days on the market? (next is) "With You or total?" Broker knows he has a savvy buyer w/those 2 "?'s".
Look, listen, ask questions, see if he throws a number on the table (they've been known to), counter at $5k below what he says is the best the seller will take & let the seller counter. Shy of being gone on vacation or weekend in front of You, give the seller 48-72 hrs to accept, counter or decline. You know the necessary contingencies by now. This is all based on You liking what You see of course... Here's a few links to owners & vessel info:

http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/niagara35sailboatowners/
(join & ask questions of OWNERS...how cool is that?)
Here's a website of all the upgrades 1 charter bareboat company did to 1:
http://www.baileywick.org/projects.htm

http://sailquest.com/market/models/niag35.htm VERY Valuable Information

& here's 1 w/ALL of the FLAWS pointed out in the above link:
http://www.canadaboatshopper.com/index/listings/page47411.htm
(only $63, 793. US)

FYI(didn't know until researching either) (be VERY CAREFUL W/Balsa Cored HULLS, just like decks a surveyors opinion is critical & moisture readings equal to his opinion.
HTH
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:27   #42
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I had friends that had a Niagara 35. It was a very good boat, the one thing I couldnt figure out was "what were they thinking" when they did the interior??? All chopped up and enclosed spaces....
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Old 13-08-2009, 08:49   #43
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- - From the responses to the first and foremost question - How are you going to use the boat? The responses favoring a 30foot range are right on. Basically, if I understand correctly, it will be a marina live-aboard/hotel room with occasional sails out into the Chesapeake. I concur with all the responses to a hold-back for re-fitting. I use the rule of thumb as to upgrading/restoring a boat to more serious ocean/island cruising to an amount of money equal to the purchase price.
- - However, bay sailing does not need that level of commitment. Primarily I would say hull integrity, blister protection, good main-line brand engine and under 10 year old rigging is all you need on the exterior. For the interior more attention should be paid so you are "comfortable" and not in a worn-out RV lifestyle. Being comfortable and having room and facilities to entertain friends onboard in all the glorious Chesapeake gunkholes will go a long way towards cementing your desire for more adventurous cruising later on in life.
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Old 13-08-2009, 09:49   #44
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Took me six months to find the right one, then made an offer that day.
Part is finding something that meets your basic list then deciding what you can put right and what you can't put right. Clean boats tend to be better cared for and I wanted a reasonable set of instruments etc so it was sail away.
There have been some tuning tweaks and an engine issue but all have been reasonable to sort out with the money left over from from a reduced bid.
30 yr old boat had some issues at survey, (after purchase for insurance), but again all will be do-able this winter. I've had a year of free sailing given that she'll sell for something near what I paid. I hope.
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Old 13-08-2009, 10:18   #45
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I second Eleven's Post...you have to be able to look past some dirt to see the diamond in the rough...You are shopping for a used boat afterall !...We took 1 year to find our boat ..we new it was the one almost instantly...Still very happy with the purchase..just not the circumstances involved.

My biggest gripe with buyers is they want a perfect new condition boat for a used beat up price.
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