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Old 11-10-2013, 17:46   #211
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
It amazes me the suggestion that new sailors should be thinking in terms of right or left as opposed to the things that actually means something such as starboard or port. It just astounds me that the cardinal points of a compass would be used to describe the direction tiller should be pointed.

If one is teaching someone anything new, why not use the proper terminology. It means something. That terminology has been used for decades and centuries because it clearly defines nautical concepts.


See, this is how stupid rumors get started. *I* never said left or right, and believe me, the students who were on our boat understand port and starboard. They understand why it's used instead of left or right.

When was the last time you saw two "raw recruits" with little more than 10 hours on boats with no engine, dock a 27' boat under power, perfectly, on the first try?

What was important here was that they will never go through a fear of docking. They can't take the boat out if they can't dock it, now, can they?

And, by the way, bright things that they are, they discussed between themselves afterwards about port and starboard.

I don't think I've ever seen any of our students confused about port and starboard, and any time I have a beginner on my boat I explain the reason for it.

YOU said left and right. I did not, just so we're clear.

The advantage of facing the stern is that it's VERY clear when to turn to make sure you don't hit any other objects, it being a basic tenet of physics that two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time. it greatly minimizes the effect of the wind.

I would bet my front teeth that you will never try it.
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Old 11-10-2013, 17:48   #212
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

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Originally Posted by highseas View Post
My friend ,a novice boater,did exactly this.He hooked up hyd. lines backwards.Then to top it off,he left dock and floored it (30ft sailboat).got 100 ft., turned to avoid boats at dock.Guess what happened.CRUNCH!

Well now, your friend added a few steps I've never espoused.

My favorite bonehead move is trying to leave the dock while the power is still plugged in. I bet everyone does that as a beginner.
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Old 11-10-2013, 17:49   #213
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
I think I have figured it out after much study of voluminous posting across many threads.

We (CF) are a social media laboratory for a grad level Stanford advanced communications psych class.

The whole class is participating in putting together stimulus posts under an assumed name and then grading and recording our responses. They are looking at frustration levels stimulated by language. They are interested in replies to nonsense posts.

The guiding text book is George Orwell's 1984 with emphasis on integrating government non-speak into the language of the middle classes.

"War is peace, freedom is slavery, etc."

I am very sorry to tell you that you are now out of the study.
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Old 11-10-2013, 17:50   #214
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I get worn down when I have people on board I am responsible for. Responsible for entertainment navigation schedule etc....
What I have learned is to go for shorter goals. Leave early while they are asleep. Get in early so they can play in the water. Enjoy the places that work. Move on but scrap the agenda.
That puts me in better anchorages relieves pressure. Forces me to work on/ negate my strategy to keep going.
Relax. Not that I have not had oops anchor moments.
Pulled the Bruce across hard pan once. The chain resonated the bouncing. Bent the **** out of a cqr in dead horse bay. That time I could have water skied behind the tidal flow behind the boat while it was anchored.
Sometimes I hang out in the cockpit if its nasty out. Keep a second anchor and rhode available. Guess that's it. If I'm getting blown around I am awake. One thing I haven't figured out is how to stop the hunting that happens especially if tide and wind are in contrast. That kinda motion is unnerving. The boat will sail off fetch up and go 100 degrees the other way trying to find a good stable resistance. And back it goes.
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Old 11-10-2013, 17:51   #215
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
why let facts get in the way of a good argument

Yeah, and why let it die down, either, when there are still digs to get in...
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Old 11-10-2013, 17:59   #216
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Yeah, and why let it die down, either, when there are still digs to get in...
Aw come on Raku, others have indicated that they are willing to move onward. Could you please join us in getting over this semantic kerfuffle and get back to the thread subject, or at least somewhere near it?

Those of us who have successfully lived at anchor for long times are trying to help the OP understand the options available... something that every real cruiser must understand if they are to enjoy their lifestyle.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 11-10-2013, 18:00   #217
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Are you aware of the difference between prop *wash* and prop*walk*?

Terminology *is* important.
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Originally Posted by Coops View Post
Raku, you talk about two different things and seem to indicate that they are the same. If you push the TILLER to port when reversing, then the boat will turn to starboard. If you put the RUDDER to port, then the boat will go to port. You said "tiller' in your first post about this, then afterwards in another one you said rudder. I "pounded" you because the first statement is completely incorrect. You are always warning folks about false information, so I was only doing the same.

Coops.
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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
So..... does constant bickering wear you down? Seems not.
I'm cracking up. Tiller - rudder. What's the difference?

Give it up.

There is a button for that.
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Old 11-10-2013, 18:04   #218
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

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Originally Posted by Coops View Post
Using the correct terminology would not lead to misunderstanding at all. To have let your original statement pass could have been dangerous for the new sailor. This is something that you should care about. You, as a teacher, of sailing or otherwise, should know how important it is to state clearly what you mean to say.

Coops.
A teacher?????????

YOUGOTTABEKIDDINME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-10-2013, 18:05   #219
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
No, I can't agree with that. No matter where you stand, the rudder will always "point" in the opposite direction of the tiller.

But I do think that this is a specious and senseless argument. A moments trial and error in a boat will show even the novice which way to move the helm to accomplish a turn, whether in forward or reverse, semantics be damned. I agree that when reversing I find it convenient to stand facing aft, whether a wheel or a tiller is in use.

Meanwhile, why don't we move on and rejoin the conversation about the trials of constant anchoring. FWIW, Ann and I have lived mostly at anchor for 27 years now and still like it better than marina living. For us, marinas are places to go when lots of work needs doing or the boat must be left unattended for a while. YMMV.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim ... jim ... Jim ...

the rudder is still the rudder and still acts as it acts. The tiller is still the tiller and it acts upon the rudder as it always acts upon the rudder. This approach is not useful because no one shouting "Port! "Starboard!"

It works because the steering mechanism is in close proximity and it's easy to make the judgments needed to dock the boat safely. If one INSISTED on belaboring all the language, it would still be a very safe way to dock a boat stern in. But in fact it's so intuitive that it doesn't matter what words you use.

We didn't have to say "Turn the tiller to starboard -- it will look like port, but if you really think about it, it's starboard."

All we had to say was "Decide when to turn the tiller."

They did it perfectly.

They discussed port and starboard spontaneously on their own afterwards. A nice light hand with the teaching there.

We also told them to practice their knots, including making them when they can't see their hands, over and over and over until they can do them all with great ease, because when things get dicey you want your knots to be automatic. It's like practicing scales on the piano.

I was just listening to Tchaicovsky's (sp?) first piano oncerto. It opens with a pattern of three chords played up the keyboard, twice.

It's right out of Hanon's book of keyboard exercises. Then there were parts of scales in octaves. It's all automatic and you can focus on the music.

It's the same with docking. Make it EASY. Learn the knots extremely well. These two are already way ahead of the rest of the students they learned to sail with, and they can safely dock a boat that's five times as big as the one they learned on, using engine power, no less.

And no one had to explain port and starboard to them. No one said "left or right" or even "north" and "west." I used the directions trying to explain how this works.

Nothing magical happened with the rudder, either. Now that they've done it, knowing these two, they've already visualized what the rudder did. The're sharp. All these issues were made up from ASSUMPTIONS -- assumption that it was done to avoid the words "port and staroard;" that somehow I imaged that the rudder suddenly broke all rules of physics and moved differently; that we were telling the students to move the rudder to the left.

ALL THOUGHT UP BY OTHER PEOPLE AND THEN ATTRIBUTED TO ME. the "me" part doesn't matter. The making stuff up and attribributing it to someone else has caused all the uproar -- in this thread and in the other thread as well.

Why should I want to learn anything from someone who does that? What an impossible scenario.
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Old 11-10-2013, 18:08   #220
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
OK, so which way is North?

"
Originally Posted by Dockhead
How a tiller works. Pay close attention everyone -- this is really complicated:

Attachment 68467

OK, so which way is North? "

Note the sarcasm. They've actually done research on this -- the worst teachers use sarcasm to make their points. Here's one source for those who might be interested: Sarcasm Is a Useful Teaching Tool--NOT | THE CENTER FOR STRENGTHENING THE TEACHING PROFESSION
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Old 11-10-2013, 18:12   #221
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

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Originally Posted by Coops View Post
Oh no, not again. It will not do so. Face backwards and push the tiller to starboard and the stern of the boat will go to port.

Coops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Rakuflames please quit posting nonsense.

Regardless of which way you are facing, if you push the tiller to starboard in reverse, the boat is going to move PORT (in the absence of other influences such as current, wind and prop walk).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
In a spirit of sincere helpfulness, Raku, people have been trying to tell you that this is not so.

If you are reversing and face the stern, and you push the tiller to starboard (your left hand), the boat will go to port (your right hand).

It will move in the opposite direction from the direction you pushed the tiller. If you would listen and think about it, instead of firing off hostile diatribes, you would surely see this yourself -- it's elementary. None of this squabbling is necessary.


Going beyond that really useless discussion, I would suggest that all this business about facing this way or that way is not really helpful to beginners. People new to boat handling should, in my humble opinion, try to firmly grasp first of all which direction the rudder will go when you push the tiller or turn the wheel in this or that direction. In my experience, most people get it quite quickly, and once they really get it, they don't even notice which direction they're facing. If one has to be facing one way or the other, I suggest that one is not yet sufficiently oriented.
I am just dying here. Seriously.
If it weren't for the quotes I would not be in the state I am in now.
And this time it is moderators.
Is there a way for ignore to work for quotes too? Please.

On page 12. Moving toward the end.............where I may have to slit my wrists.

Hahahaha - ouch ouch, ooohhh, ow, owee, OH dang that hurts. Sheeeiiittt..
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Old 11-10-2013, 18:12   #222
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

I give up...

If anyone wants to discuss the anchoring issue further, please start up a new thread.

Jim
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Old 11-10-2013, 18:15   #223
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
It amazes me the suggestion that new sailors should be thinking in terms of right or left as opposed to the things that actually means something such as starboard or port. It just astounds me that the cardinal points of a compass would be used to describe the direction tiller should be pointed.

If one is teaching someone anything new, why not use the proper terminology. It means something. That terminology has been used for decades and centuries because it clearly defines nautical concepts.

We DID use the right terminology. We said, "When you think the time is right -- PUSH THE TILLER." That's what they each did. They each in turn docked the boat, pushing the tiller when they thought the time was right.

Only in the imaginations of some here were left and right EVER said.

After they had docked the boat, the students talked about what happened -- using port and starboard, with no prompts from us. I guess they were proud of themselves or something. They really did pretty darned well. We told them that too, but they had already figured that out for themselves also.

They also didn't call the rudder a biscuit, and they didn't call the tiller a stick. They didn't call anything a "thingie" or a "gizmo." They called the bird droppings "bird ship." They got it all right.
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Old 11-10-2013, 18:17   #224
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Therapy, You are missing your moment. Obviously the tiller represents a penis. It won't matter what you do with the thing or which way it is pushed. It won't perform the way you hope unless you are experienced and have played with it. The rudder represents desire and frustration. The damn thing is pushed over as hard as it can be but were not going where we want. This direction is not beneficial to us as a couple. Why can't you see that I have pushed you this far to the stops. I want some response. Keep up or give up the couch. Hope this doesn't cause you to cancel the 3:45 appointment.
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Old 11-10-2013, 18:17   #225
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Re: Does constant anchoring wear you down?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Yes, of course it will! Unless you actually try it and get your head out of your ... vocabulary ... you'll never get it. Not my problem. I'm sure you don't need any help backing your boat into the slip, and you're having so much fun this way. No matter how much I explain it you will deliberately misinterpret it, so I'm not going to bother.

but really, if the slip is on the south side of the fairway, and you're backing up and facing the stern, and you push the tiller to the south, the boat will turn to the south and back right up into the slip. I think using NSEW is the best way to explain this -- to an open mind, anyway. The new students on the boat with us Sunday didn't stand around puffing themselves up because they understand port and starboard. They backed the boat up, and pushed the tiller to the south, and the stern of the boat turned south and right into the slip.

That's actually what mattered to them -- not a three day snit because someone didn't use "port and starboard," but getting the boat into the slip safely.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankZ View Post
A tiller steered boat will not behave as you explain, no matter how many times you say, how loud you say it or how rudely you say it.

If you move the tiller one way the rudder points in a different direction. In reverse a boat will move to where the rudder points, over riding factors not withstanding.

I have tried it, more than once. You are not the only person to have ever backed a tiller steered boat.
AAAAAAHHHHHHHH. YYYYYYAAAAAAA. IIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Frank? You came all the way over here for this? Wow.
Thanks man. Do you think you helped any?

Absolutely un-fu*k#ng believable.

And an instructor? No fu*k#ng way.

Don't you have to have some sort of certification before you can be an instructor?
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