Dockaminiums?

[Morequestions]

Thinking about that future boat and where to keep (live in it).
In Florida I once in awhile see live aboard slips for sale, but cannot find any location where I can compare others for sale. Finding much has eluded me, is there a location or forum where I can find them advertised?
Also any experience you may have owning one and what to look out for?
The less expensive the better

[flyingfin]

Docksearch.com or https://marinas.com/slips_for_sale

But as with all real estate, buyer beware. Monthly fees, plus State bottom land lease, plus capital replacement, plus management fees, plus property taxes can make this an expensive arrangement. Make sure you check the number of units owned by one corporation vs total number of units. You can be out voted on annual operation costs

[Orion Jim]

As flyingfin mentioned they are real estate and if you call local agents you will find listings in your target areas.

[night0wl]

I own one in Florida. Here's the skinny from my experience.

Like any condominium, expect there to be the usual drama. Things like quarterly assessments. Unfunded or underfunded reserves. Periodic special assessments. Board drama and who runs what, who can fine an owner for what condition of a boat or whats left on the docks. Facilities that used to look great, but steadily get worn down or just become functionally obsolete. Corners being cut on maintenance in common areas. Landscaping that looked great when it was sold by the developer but just cannot be maintained at that level when the facility is handed over to the owners without ridiculous increases in quarterly assessments. Overpaid or lazy/entrenched staff that cannot be fired since they've been there for ever or know some powerful board member.

An added complexity in Florida is whether the dockominium actually owns the land under the water. Those communities (in my neck of the woods) are pretty rare. Most have a land-lease with the state of florida. This is important because when you purchase the boat slip, you have to either pay doc stamps and annual property taxes for fee simple, land under the water owned dock. Else, you pay sales tax on the transaction value of the slip sale at 6% (or whatever the local sales tax is). Also, those land leases expire! While I haven't seen a land lease revoked, I imagine there's always a pretty hefty increase in assessments on lease renewal as the state hunts for more revenue from perceived deep pocketed yacht owners. Imagine if negotiations break down and your marina has to pull out the dock infrastructure at their cost. Some dont even have much shoreside facilities. That is why I've always avoided marina dockominiums that have a state land lease rather than own the underwater land fee simple. Truth be told those fee simple marinas are rare because they usually involved dredging real land that could have been houses and connecting it to a waterway with a permit with the army core of engineers. Back in the 50s/60s/70s that was possible...*GOOD LUCK* doing that now! So, those fee simple marinas are few and far between and those that do exist are pretty old now.

Another complexity in dockominiums is that there's usually a transient revenue pool split and/or leasing split with the HOA and the dock owner. This can be a plus in some cases if you buy in significantly below market value...but is a double edged sword as some owners no longer have a boat and will rent to anyone that can pass the background check (if the HOA even requires that!!!) and see the slip as an investment. It also kills the vibe of a marina community which is supposed to be like minded boat owners that form a community on the water. Instead, sometimes it degrades to what derelict of the month is in the slip or dock down the gangway. Come hurricane season, it gets really interesting to know which boat is the greatest risk of breaking loose.

Also, another gotcha at least in my neck of the woods is that the marina dock slips share facilities with a yacht club and there are many "dual members". In fact, the board of the marina is captive to dual owners/members since they have been on the board forever. Many times, they direct marina staff and resources to "help" the yacht club...counter to the interest of boat slip owners only. In fact, a recent event that set me off is they bought a golf cart for the Yacht Club on installments...basically gave the Yacht Club a zero interest loan! On top of that, they gave the Yacht Club members full access to our boat house and pool, but we are only allowed to use the pay/cash bar (not even their inside restaurant). But they're entrenched board members and the rules around elections make it very hard to vote them out since you have to run against them 1vs1 directly. I've seen failed developer projects where 10-20 slips in a 60 slip facility are owned by the owners with the developer folding up shop and selling to someone who wants to run the facility as a marina for his benefit only. Since he has majority of the slips in his name, he's jacked up assessments so high in order to force the independent slip owners out via receivership.

Next up is features. I've seen them run the gamut. Everything from ICW side fixed wooden docks with no parking and no amenities...just some wood hammered into a seawall to park your boat along. On the flip side, I've seen high class yachting facilities with pools, clubhouses, fitness centers, saunas, staff to help you in and out of a slip, floating docks on 18' concrete pier pilings (good for hurricane surge). I've seen them as part of yacht clubs, affiliated with yacht clubs, alongside condo complexes, in downtown areas near bars/restaurants, or out in the wilderness in the peace and quiet of the 10,000 islands.

As for value. Well, I bought my slip approximately 50% of what owners bought from the developer. On top of that, I missed out on a massive special assessment that built our clubhouse and pool. I could have rented a slip in this very nice, liveaboard marina in the location I wanted to be for ~$800 a month. My payback period assuming zero to very little appreciation on the slip value itself is about 9 years. I intend to boat for a lot longer than that...so it made sense for me to buy it, especially since I got the prior owner to carry the note for a very attractive rate.

That being said...go in with your eyes wide open. My advise is never buy directly from the developer in an immature marina community. Buy from an owner that needs to just get out..or be patient. These aren't very liquid assets and slips often sit on the market for months if not years before selling. Don't be afraid to lowball if you see fear in the eyes of the seller.

[valhalla360]

Nice summary.

We looked at it years back in the Great Lakes area and the numbers just didn't make sense. You basically got about a 40% discount over what the renters were paying but it was never going to pay off in the long run. Maybe 25% of the slips were sold last time I checked because it was a horrible deal.

Then you have to factor in if you move or get out of boating, can you rent or sell the slip in a reasonable time frame. If you are dumping a few thousand per year into a slip that isn't being used, it quickly becomes a money losing scenario.

Obviously run the specific numbers but short of getting one at a steep discount in an area you are sure to stay in...there's a good chance it will be cheaper and easier to just rent.

[night0wl]

ONe more nuance I forgot to add on the Florida land lease facilities. You pay the sales tax when you buy, but no annual property tax bill. Its one less "vendor" to cut a check to. However, expect higher assessments since the land lease is baked into the assessments rather. Property taxes and the land lease portion of your assessments usually tend to be a wash, if the maket is rational.

[Morequestions]

Originally Posted by night0wl

I own one in Florida. Here's the skinny from my experience.

Like any condominium, expect there to be the usual drama. Things like quarterly assessments. Unfunded or underfunded reserves. Periodic special assessments. Board drama and who runs what, who can fine an owner for what condition of a boat or whats left on the docks. Facilities that used to look great, but steadily get worn down or just become functionally obsolete. Corners being cut on maintenance in common areas. Landscaping that looked great when it was sold by the developer but just cannot be maintained at that level when the facility is handed over to the owners without ridiculous increases in quarterly assessments. Overpaid or lazy/entrenched staff that cannot be fired since they've been there for ever or know some powerful board member.

An added complexity in Florida is whether the dockominium actually owns the land under the water. Those communities (in my neck of the woods) are pretty rare. Most have a land-lease with the state of florida. This is important because when you purchase the boat slip, you have to either pay doc stamps and annual property taxes for fee simple, land under the water owned dock. Else, you pay sales tax on the transaction value of the slip sale at 6% (or whatever the local sales tax is). Also, those land leases expire! While I haven't seen a land lease revoked, I imagine there's always a pretty hefty increase in assessments on lease renewal as the state hunts for more revenue from perceived deep pocketed yacht owners. Imagine if negotiations break down and your marina has to pull out the dock infrastructure at their cost. Some dont even have much shoreside facilities. That is why I've always avoided marina dockominiums that have a state land lease rather than own the underwater land fee simple. Truth be told those fee simple marinas are rare because they usually involved dredging real land that could have been houses and connecting it to a waterway with a permit with the army core of engineers. Back in the 50s/60s/70s that was possible...*GOOD LUCK* doing that now! So, those fee simple marinas are few and far between and those that do exist are pretty old now.

Another complexity in dockominiums is that there's usually a transient revenue pool split and/or leasing split with the HOA and the dock owner. This can be a plus in some cases if you buy in significantly below market value...but is a double edged sword as some owners no longer have a boat and will rent to anyone that can pass the background check (if the HOA even requires that!!!) and see the slip as an investment. It also kills the vibe of a marina community which is supposed to be like minded boat owners that form a community on the water. Instead, sometimes it degrades to what derelict of the month is in the slip or dock down the gangway. Come hurricane season, it gets really interesting to know which boat is the greatest risk of breaking loose.

Also, another gotcha at least in my neck of the woods is that the marina dock slips share facilities with a yacht club and there are many "dual members". In fact, the board of the marina is captive to dual owners/members since they have been on the board forever. Many times, they direct marina staff and resources to "help" the yacht club...counter to the interest of boat slip owners only. In fact, a recent event that set me off is they bought a golf cart for the Yacht Club on installments...basically gave the Yacht Club a zero interest loan! On top of that, they gave the Yacht Club members full access to our boat house and pool, but we are only allowed to use the pay/cash bar (not even their inside restaurant). But they're entrenched board members and the rules around elections make it very hard to vote them out since you have to run against them 1vs1 directly. I've seen failed developer projects where 10-20 slips in a 60 slip facility are owned by the owners with the developer folding up shop and selling to someone who wants to run the facility as a marina for his benefit only. Since he has majority of the slips in his name, he's jacked up assessments so high in order to force the independent slip owners out via receivership.

Next up is features. I've seen them run the gamut. Everything from ICW side fixed wooden docks with no parking and no amenities...just some wood hammered into a seawall to park your boat along. On the flip side, I've seen high class yachting facilities with pools, clubhouses, fitness centers, saunas, staff to help you in and out of a slip, floating docks on 18' concrete pier pilings (good for hurricane surge). I've seen them as part of yacht clubs, affiliated with yacht clubs, alongside condo complexes, in downtown areas near bars/restaurants, or out in the wilderness in the peace and quiet of the 10,000 islands.

As for value. Well, I bought my slip approximately 50% of what owners bought from the developer. On top of that, I missed out on a massive special assessment that built our clubhouse and pool. I could have rented a slip in this very nice, liveaboard marina in the location I wanted to be for ~$800 a month. My payback period assuming zero to very little appreciation on the slip value itself is about 9 years. I intend to boat for a lot longer than that...so it made sense for me to buy it, especially since I got the prior owner to carry the note for a very attractive rate.

That being said...go in with your eyes wide open. My advise is never buy directly from the developer in an immature marina community. Buy from an owner that needs to just get out..or be patient. These aren't very liquid assets and slips often sit on the market for months if not years before selling. Don't be afraid to lowball if you see fear in the eyes of the seller.

So much to think about here, and being a quiet person I'm not into the politics of a place. That said a boat needs to be kept somewhere. I once seen a youtube episode of a marina in Green Cove Springs being reasonable rent anyway, not for sale. I think it was originally a WW2 navy dock. I'll keep my eyes open I guess.
Is the insurance the HOA buys fully covering your investment?
Or is it like homes here the insurance has a hefty deductible in case of hurricane damage?

[night0wl]

Originally Posted by Morequestions

So much to think about here, and being a quiet person I'm not into the politics of a place. That said a boat needs to be kept somewhere. I once seen a youtube episode of a marina in Green Cove Springs being reasonable rent anyway, not for sale. I think it was originally a WW2 navy dock. I'll keep my eyes open I guess.
Is the insurance the HOA buys fully covering your investment?
Or is it like homes here the insurance has a hefty deductible in case of hurricane damage?

The insurance the marina carried covered the common areas, the amenities, the docks. But does not cover damage to individual boats. Thats up to the owners to carry. After Irma dealt a direct hit, the damage to the facilities didn't even add up to enough to exceed the deductible. So, essentially, all repairs required post-irma were from our own reserves. One of the reasons I bought in this marina is strong reserves and stable assessments.

[night0wl]

One more thing about insurance. The dockominium marina I bought into requires every boat owner to carry $1MM liability policy and name the marina itself as an additional insured. In case a boat blows up, sinks or does damage to common areas...they'll go after the insurance policy of the boat owner in order to minimize the out of pocket damages that the marina association has to cough up. Its also another way to keep the riff-raff out, as many older derelict boats aren't insurable at that level unless they've had recent surveys and remedied all defects.

I grumbled about that part since my liability component of my policy wasn't that high. But in retrospect, I think its a good policy...and should be higher. A boat sinking after breaking free in a hurricane and doing a lot of damage to that massive sport fisher in the next slip over could easily exceed $1MM in damage.

[Morequestions]

Originally Posted by night0wl

One more thing about insurance. The dockominium marina I bought into requires every boat owner to carry $1MM liability policy and name the marina itself as an additional insured. In case a boat blows up, sinks or does damage to common areas...they'll go after the insurance policy of the boat owner in order to minimize the out of pocket damages that the marina association has to cough up. Its also another way to keep the riff-raff out, as many older derelict boats aren't insurable at that level unless they've had recent surveys and remedied all defects.

I grumbled about that part since my liability component of my policy wasn't that high. But in retrospect, I think its a good policy...and should be higher. A boat sinking after breaking free in a hurricane and doing a lot of damage to that massive sport fisher in the next slip over could easily exceed $1MM in damage.

LOL I think I'm priced out of that arrangement for sure.
Its always good to know before you step into it, so thank you.
But I'll think of something

[CaptTom]

My marina started life as a "dockominium" arrangement. For all the reasons Night0wl mentioned, plus a few more unique to our state and municipality, some very bright people changed it over to a "boat club" model.

The club owns the property and pays the property tax and submerged land lease. My membership grants me exclusive use of "my" slip and the common areas, and as a member I'm a fractional owner of the club.

For me, the break-even point (renting vs. membership) was under 10 years, not counting the residual value of the membership (slip) after that time. The membership is now worth more than what I paid near the peak of the housing market back in late 2006, so I'm WAY ahead. Values did decline a little during the slump, but not as much as the housing sector.

The club itself is insured; all I need to insure is my own vessel. We don't even have a requirement to add the club as a named insured, although we probably should. Since most boats are laid up off-season, we don't get many live-aboard members. Members can rent their slips out if they don't use them, but the renter must be accepted as an "associate" member and pay nominal dues. Renters aren't normally allowed to live aboard although in rare cases we may choose to look the other way.

We're not immune to the politics that plague any small organization. In that way it's very similar to a condo association. We're fortunate to have had very few "investors" who own more than one membership and want to run the place like slumlords. There have been ups and downs with "good" and "bad" boards, but overall maintenance is not deferred and we've had good luck with the small staff we have.

Whether condo or club, I'd think a key factor to consider would be the ratio of "real" boaters to "investors." The higher the better.

[night0wl]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

My marina started life as a "dockominium" arrangement. For all the reasons Night0wl mentioned, plus a few more unique to our state and municipality, some very bright people changed it over to a "boat club" model.

The club owns the property and pays the property tax and submerged land lease. My membership grants me exclusive use of "my" slip and the common areas, and as a member I'm a fractional owner of the club.

For me, the break-even point (renting vs. membership) was under 10 years, not counting the residual value of the membership (slip) after that time. The membership is now worth more than what I paid near the peak of the housing market back in late 2006, so I'm WAY ahead. Values did decline a little during the slump, but not as much as the housing sector.

The club itself is insured; all I need to insure is my own vessel. We don't even have a requirement to add the club as a named insured, although we probably should. Since most boats are laid up off-season, we don't get many live-aboard members. Members can rent their slips out if they don't use them, but the renter must be accepted as an "associate" member and pay nominal dues. Renters aren't normally allowed to live aboard although in rare cases we may choose to look the other way.

We're not immune to the politics that plague any small organization. In that way it's very similar to a condo association. We're fortunate to have had very few "investors" who own more than one membership and want to run the place like slumlords. There have been ups and downs with "good" and "bad" boards, but overall maintenance is not deferred and we've had good luck with the small staff we have.

Whether condo or club, I'd think a key factor to consider would be the ratio of "real" boaters to "investors." The higher the better.

So instead of a condo dockominium, you have a co-op

[CSY Man]

Got a condo with dock available in Fort Lauderdale:
2/2, new bath rooms and new kitchen.
65’ feet dock, 5.5 depth at low tide.
Ok for Catamaran up to 20’ beam.
No fixed bridges.
$2k monthly rent.
Zip code 33315, Rio Nuevo Condominiums.