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Old 11-11-2014, 19:48   #361
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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Originally Posted by BandB View Post
And that's also more support for not assuming the person on watch is experienced .....
So how much experience do you think a watchkeeper should have before standing a watch by himself...given that the world's maritime authorities think about 3 years seatime is sufficient?

I would rather be dealing with a bright eyed and bushy tailed 3/0 with a brand new ticket than a 35 year old jaded and jaundiced 2/0 at 0300.......
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Old 11-11-2014, 23:11   #362
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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So how much experience do you think a watchkeeper should have before standing a watch by himself...given that the world's maritime authorities think about 3 years seatime is sufficient?

I would rather be dealing with a bright eyed and bushy tailed 3/0 with a brand new ticket than a 35 year old jaded and jaundiced 2/0 at 0300.......
I didn't say one must have experience, just not to assume they do. I don't want the experienced person with the hangover or the young person who was up all night. I don't want the person distracted for any reason. But I also don't trust the best ever not to one day make a mistake and that's why I treat all I meet as if this might be their time to make a mistake.
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Old 11-11-2014, 23:16   #363
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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I didn't say one must have experience, just not to assume they do. I don't want the experienced person with the hangover or the young person who was up all night. I don't want the person distracted for any reason. But I also don't trust the best ever not to one day make a mistake and that's why I treat all I meet as if this might be their time to make a mistake.
Correcto.... beware the bold assumption!!.... never assume the other bloke has seen you ...
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Old 11-11-2014, 23:33   #364
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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...A crossing situation as described is about as bad as they come... nobody likes altering down on another ship ...
I've just had another look at the chart reproduced (on its side!) in the report.... I was guilty earlier of a bold assumption that the Purbrook was abaft the tanker's beam... thats when it gets messy. However nothing wrong really in what the tanker watchkeeper did as such.... just that he really needed to come more to port and would need to be substantially faster or slower than the ferry for it to work....
Even on those headings you can get into serious poo altering down to starboard on another ship at short range.....thats why watchkeeper on the tanker was thinking of taking a round turn to port....

I note that the report uses speeds 'over the ground' ... very strange. I also note this bit ...."( Purbrook's) Alarms are set for a CPA of another vessel of 0.5 miles and a time to closest point of approach (TCPA) of 6 minutes. " sheesh.... shades of Lady Gwendoline and Freshfield......
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Old 12-11-2014, 00:44   #365
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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I would think that is more locale than anything. I hear that in (northern?) europe it's actually enforced and yotties are more serious about it.

In the US where I am, nobody has a clue about an anchor ball. I've never seen one. IIRC, in an anchorage it's required only for over 20M anyway - so folks like me with smallish boats are... well... not completely remiss in not possessing one. Unless I end up anchoring in the channel... methinks I should display it then (If I had one). But I'm not even close to an expert, so don't listen to me.
You're absolutely correct. IN northern europe, the authorities (notably the Dutch, German and Swedish) take motorsaiilng cones and anchor balls very seriously indeed.

I have both on my boat and fly them as appropriate.

On another thread thread I posted pictures of a number of dutch boats that has motorsailing triangles roven to their signal halyards ready to be hoisted at a moments notice.

Part of the reason for it being taken seriously is the density of traffic on many european waterways (read ěresund/Solent/english Channel etc). Here you are frequently surrounded by large commercial ships moving at 20+ konts in close formations and will have hundreds of liesure craft darting in and out of shipping channels etc.

Maneuvering safely in these waters does require knowing and obeying the Colregs.

And why not have anchro balls and motorsailing cones and fly them? Their cost is negligable and the effort involved to set and fly them is slight.

Is it just laziness or ignorance?
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Old 12-11-2014, 08:43   #366
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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Originally Posted by jeepbluetj View Post
I would think that is more locale than anything. I hear that in (northern?) europe it's actually enforced and yotties are more serious about it.

In the US where I am, nobody has a clue about an anchor ball. I've never seen one. IIRC, in an anchorage it's required only for over 20M anyway - so folks like me with smallish boats are... well... not completely remiss in not possessing one. Unless I end up anchoring in the channel... methinks I should display it then (If I had one). But I'm not even close to an expert, so don't listen to me.
It's required for all boat of any size.

But you are correct about Northern Europe -- the French, Dutch, and especially Germans are really anal about it. About the motoring cone also.

The Brits don't seem to enforce it -- the UK is extremely laissez faire about boating, don't board for safety inspections, couldn't care less about your discharges, and generally don't hassle anyone about anything (imagine a country where your only contacts with the Coast Guard are when they are helping you, including even towing you in, rather than hassling you about something -- just one of several reasons which make UK waters a sailing paradise), but UK sailors do often use the anchor ball. And motoring cone.
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Old 12-11-2014, 08:49   #367
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post

Part of the reason for it being taken seriously is the density of traffic on many european waterways (read ěresund/Solent/english Channel etc). Here you are frequently surrounded by large commercial ships moving at 20+ konts in close formations and will have hundreds of liesure craft darting in and out of shipping channels etc.

Maneuvering safely in these waters does require knowing and obeying the Colregs.

And why not have anchro balls and motorsailing cones and fly them? Their cost is negligable and the effort involved to set and fly them is slight.

Is it just laziness or ignorance?
Exactly. If you're motorsailing but not showing the cone, other vessels are unlikely to know your status, and maneuver in the wrong order. The cone means "I'm under power and will maneuver accordingly". It prevents confusion.

Likewise with the ball -- God forbid someone thinks you're underway when you're actually at anchor.

Why in the world risk such a misunderstanding?
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Old 12-11-2014, 09:04   #368
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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Unless it's aground
Naturally!

Or if the rudder fell off

But you have to display the two balls or two red lights. I doubt if any recreational sailing vessel in the world has such signals on board.
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Old 12-11-2014, 09:10   #369
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
As a rule of thumb the VHF horizon in NM is about
1.23√(height of antenna in feet) as there is generally some refraction. Some atmospheric conditions can lead to superrefraction (ducting) which can greatly extend that range - up to 100s of miles in extreme cases. By the same measure there can be subrefraction that will decrease that range.

If I take my 60 ft antenna height, my signal should hit the horizon at 9.5nm, but adding the horizon range for the other ship - say 12nm for one with a 100ft antenna height; we should be seeing each other just beyond 20 miles on an average day.

Barnakiel's other point about transmit power can't be ignored. All transmissions attenuate with range - ducting minimizes those losses, but on the other hand moisture or dust can shorten the effective range. Low power transmissions should not be relied upon to have an effective range beyond about 10nm, even though they frequently surpass that.
In theory, yes, but the antenna and cabling are extremely important, and more important than the transmission power. I have had "weak but readable" signal reports from 60 miles using 1 watt of transmit power, and carried on perfectly effective conversations. That's 25 times less than normal transmit power. But with a really good antenna and RG213 cabling run in one continuous run all the way from the masthead to the nav table.
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Old 12-11-2014, 09:27   #370
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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That in my opinion it is a waste of time of course. Every thread involving rules only shows that people follow them as much as speed limits.
That just the culture of this forum. Not too long ago someone worried me endlessly saying that I would be sued and not covered by my insurance because I used non-OEM replacement lamps in my navigation lights.

As far as the "rules", once they cease to be enforced, they aren't really rules any more.
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Old 12-11-2014, 09:40   #371
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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That in my opinion it is a waste of time of course. Every thread involving rules only shows that people follow them as much as speed limits.
Actually, that is not the case.

We've had some great input on COLREGS from professional mariners and instructors, as well as very experienced sailors whose backyard requires them to be fully cognizant of them. To many, there are contradictions at first reading, and it helps immensely when a number of professionals and knowledgeable members define it the same way.

And even if your premise is correct, at the very least, you will know what "speed limit" you are suppose to be following, and if you choose not to, that is your issue, not those that do.

I know I learn from the discussions.
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Old 12-11-2014, 10:48   #372
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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I have never seen a recreational boat displaying an anchor ball. Never. I'll admit to not having 40 years of boating but I have 15 or so and repeat I have never seen a recreational boat displaying an anchor ball, required or not. Nor have I ever seen LEO officers citing a boater for not displaying one.

I would wager that nine out of ten, perhaps more recreational boaters would not know what an anchor ball is or what it means.

If I want to know if a boat is anchored I look for the rode or the fact that it's facing into the current and not moving.
Here's one:

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Old 12-11-2014, 11:50   #373
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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....
Maneuvering safely in these waters does require knowing and obeying the Colregs.

And why not have anchro balls and motorsailing cones and fly them? Their cost is negligable and the effort involved to set and fly them is slight.

Is it just laziness or ignorance?
I think that in southern California it's a combination of ignorance, laziness, and "nobody else does, so I won't either." But even me being pretty clueless I know about day shapes. So we're not all ignorant.

There's also local custom, which is not right but exists. In my area a sailboat with just the main up is pretty much gonna be motoring/motorsailing (and should display the cone). Very few folks motorsail with full sail - so 2 sails and I assume their sailing. Nobody displays a cone - I've never seen it around here.

And jetskis are some sort of special thing - they don't seem to follow any rules

I really do like the rules threads - I learn a little from each one.
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Old 12-11-2014, 12:18   #374
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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Here's one:
What a pity its not hoisted in the fore triangle....
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Old 12-11-2014, 13:43   #375
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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.............. And why not have anchro balls and motorsailing cones and fly them? Their cost is negligable and the effort involved to set and fly them is slight.

Is it just laziness or ignorance?
That seems like a pretty arrogant statement to me.

Please consider that not everyone is operating a large sailboat or a ship. There are millions of smaller boats on the water with no provision to flying an anchor ball. A strict interpretation of the rules would have Uncle Bubba flying an anchor ball from his camouflaged duck boat.

None of the boats in my marina, including mine, have a provision for an anchor ball as delivered from the manufacturer. If it ever becomes customary around here, I'll consider hanging one from my bimini top frame.
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