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Old 09-11-2014, 17:38   #316
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

Interesting post! In my limited experience.......don't assume that the navy know where they are going or what they are doing ! See http://www.philstar.com/headlines/20...taha-grounding.
I suppose it depends where you are . In Philippines keep a constant watch..even then can be tricky! Groups of small fishing boats many miles out the size of a row boats disappear behind a ripple in the water even in daylight.
Heart attacks: At night about to cross behind boat .........at last moment saw it was a tug towing an large unlit barge on a long tow line. logs and trees in Malyasia.
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Old 09-11-2014, 20:55   #317
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

Untrained watchkeepers? Oh, heavens that couldn't be... could it?

Let us hearken back to the collision between Jessica Watson and the Chinese freighter. There were two watchkeepers on duty, the second mate and an AB IIRC. They saw her green running light well before the collision and decided that it must be a buoy with a fixed green light and continued on with their non-nautical conversation... all neatly recorded by the bridge tape recorder.

All documented in teh official investigation report. I guess this does not prove lack of training, just lack of seamanship and paying attention... at least this is the general conclusion of the tribunal, who only gave 20% (again IIRC) of the blame to Jessica, who admitted that she was not keeping a continuous watch.

And remember, this was not far out to sea, but in a moderately busy area near the entrance to the main Brisbane ship channel.

Many, likely most ships officers and watchkeeping crew are well trained and good at their jobs, but assume that this is always true at your peril!

Jim
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Old 09-11-2014, 23:42   #318
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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Untrained watchkeepers? Oh, heavens that couldn't be... could it?

Let us hearken back to the collision between Jessica Watson and the Chinese freighter. There were two watchkeepers on duty, the second mate and an AB IIRC. They saw her green running light well before the collision and decided that it must be a buoy with a fixed green light and continued on with their non-nautical conversation... all neatly recorded by the bridge tape recorder.

All documented in teh official investigation report. I guess this does not prove lack of training, just lack of seamanship and paying attention... at least this is the general conclusion of the tribunal, who only gave 20% (again IIRC) of the blame to Jessica, who admitted that she was not keeping a continuous watch.

And remember, this was not far out to sea, but in a moderately busy area near the entrance to the main Brisbane ship channel.

Many, likely most ships officers and watchkeeping crew are well trained and good at their jobs, but assume that this is always true at your peril!

Jim
Just because they may do the job well, don't assume that. That's why I do like to communicate with them. Remember half the captains are the bottom half. Everytime you think any profession is totally trustworthy, such as a doctor, remember that half of them finished in the bottom half of their graduating class. Heck, the one you're seeing could have great people skills but have been in the bottom 3%.
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Old 10-11-2014, 19:07   #319
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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Just because they may do the job well, don't assume that. That's why I do like to communicate with them. Remember half the captains are the bottom half. Everytime you think any profession is totally trustworthy, such as a doctor, remember that half of them finished in the bottom half of their graduating class. Heck, the one you're seeing could have great people skills but have been in the bottom 3%.
You got that right! and it's a tough notion to meaningfully get your head around! Like, exactly how do you evaluate a new to you doctor?

Ann
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Old 10-11-2014, 19:23   #320
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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Remember half the captains are the bottom half.
While this is undeniably true, you must also remember that if the failure cut-off is at a high enough level (as it should be for master mariner, unlimited) even the last guy in the class is pretty damn good.

Not that I advocate blind trust in the oncoming ship's watchkeepers, but most are not so bad... yet ya gotta wonder as the monster ship looms ever closer...

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 10-11-2014, 19:50   #321
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

At some point, they're good enough for the job.

The worst quarterback in the NFL is one hell of a football player.
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Old 10-11-2014, 19:51   #322
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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..... if the failure cut-off is at a high enough level (as it should be for master mariner, unlimited) even the last guy in the class is pretty damn good.......

Cheers,

Jim
Gday Jim, when I sat my tickets way back in the dream time the pass required for writtens was 70%... higher for a few papers... 100% when doing rules of the road in orals..... but there was no test for common sense or aptitude... I've sailed with more than a few highly qualified fruit loops in my time.
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Old 10-11-2014, 20:42   #323
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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While this is undeniably true, you must also remember that if the failure cut-off is at a high enough level (as it should be for master mariner, unlimited) even the last guy in the class is pretty damn good.
Failure cut off isn't at that high a level though. Plus there are also those who are inattentive or have alcohol issues or are well past their prime in skills (not age). Even agreeing that 70% of those in the bottom half were weeded out over the years, that still means that 23% of those remaining are in the bottom half. Just think Costa Concordia.

As to Ann's question on doctors, today we have reviews online on multiple sites and between those and personal recommendations we can generally improve our odds. Still I'd never have surgery without a second opinion or accept a serious diagnosis without one.

And back to Captains, the absolute best one ever has in their lifetime made one or more mistakes and this might be the time for their mistake. It's like defensive driving in a car where you always assume the person coming along the intersecting road is going to run the red light.
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Old 10-11-2014, 20:53   #324
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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....there are also those who are inattentive or have alcohol issues or are well past their prime in skills (not age).
Are we talking yacht skippers or ship skippers here?? Just wundring....
When you encounter ships on the high seas it will rarely be the master on the bridge... the watchkeeper may well be a young third mate with brand new 2nd mates ticket.

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Even agreeing that 70% of those in the bottom half were weeded out over the years, that still means that 23% of those remaining are in the bottom half. Just think Costa Concordia.
The master of Costa Concordia may well have been a very competent shipmaster who just made a very bad command descision on the day.... you only have to make one.......

I've known quite a few very capable and practical officers who - having just scraped through second mates - never managed to pass mates... just saying
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Old 10-11-2014, 21:15   #325
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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Are we talking yacht skippers or ship skippers here?? Just wundring....
When you encounter ships on the high seas it will rarely be the master on the bridge... the watchkeeper may well be a young third mate with brand new 2nd mates ticket.

The master of Costa Concordia may well have been a very competent shipmaster who just made a very bad command descision on the day.... you only have to make one.......

I've known quite a few very capable and practical officers who - having just scraped through second mates - never managed to pass mates... just saying
Talking commercial ships but could also talk Yachts. And the Concordia captain may have been relatively competent on most days, but it's that one day that we all must protect against by being cautious and assuming that the boat approaching might have someone make a very poor decision. Accidents don't happen because one is incapable of doing better, they happen because one fails to do their best on that specific occasion.
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Old 10-11-2014, 22:27   #326
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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As to Ann's question on doctors, today we have reviews online on multiple sites and between those and personal recommendations we can generally improve our odds.
There is no possibility that I would consider the opinions of untrained, uninformed people off the internet when choosing professional help of any kind.

The internet has demonstrated conclusively that the theory of a million monkeys at a million keyboards is simply wrong.
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Old 10-11-2014, 23:53   #327
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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There is no possibility that I would consider the opinions of untrained, uninformed people off the internet when choosing professional help of any kind.

The internet has demonstrated conclusively that the theory of a million monkeys at a million keyboards is simply wrong.
I would absolutely use it while at the same time recognizing it's limitations. I read doctor reviews and do consider those who say negative things that get echoed by many others through reviews and ratings on multiple sites. Here is one doctor I just looked at.

Rating on site one: 34 respondents gave an average score of 2 points out of five. Average wait an hour or more. Listens and answers, explains. All those areas around 2. Only his nurses scored better.

Rating on site two: 14 reviews. On a scale of 1 to 5, average of 2. Poor communication, erroneous information put in medical records, arrogant and irritating, shows little patience, by far the worst doctor I ever went to, do not go to see this horrible doctor, treats you like you don't matter and tries to turn you into a test monkey.

Rating on site three: 40 reviews. On a scale of 1 to 4, average of 2. Bedside manner 1.9, accurate diagnosis 2.0, courteous staff 2.8.

Other reviews: As a medical professional I should have known better as he gave me nothing but doom and gloom and zero compassion. I went to another and am doing much better.

I also talked to the head of a disease patient support group for a disease he treats who said she'd had patient after patient complaining about him.

So are you saying you'd ignore all that information from the untrained, uninformed patients?

I also read restaurant reviews on many sites and they're by patrons and not professional chefs.

I'd far more trust these reviews than those that hit local magazines rating the best of where a group of doctors all gets together and votes for each other.
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Old 11-11-2014, 00:41   #328
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

B&B:

I agree that how you winnow the information is key. And yet, with all the care I put into choosing, who I wound up with ignored very basic information that had she ordered a lab test to confirm a treatment, I would not have wound up in ITC for 5 days, and in isolation for another 4. Not something to sue over, she'd got herself covered, but it was a life threatening mistake on the part of a well meaning doctor, my second.

If the docs are as poor as the 2nd mate watchkeepers are, we're all in deep trouble!

Ann
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Old 11-11-2014, 00:48   #329
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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B&B:

I agree that how you winnow the information is key. And yet, with all the care I put into choosing, who I wound up with ignored very basic information that had she ordered a lab test to confirm a treatment, I would not have wound up in ITC for 5 days, and in isolation for another 4. Not something to sue over, she'd got herself covered, but it was a life threatening mistake on the part of a well meaning doctor, my second.

If the docs are as poor as the 2nd mate watchkeepers are, we're all in deep trouble!

Ann
An important statement for you and others. The manager of your medical care is YOU. Not any doctor. You need to manage them. They need to explain everything they've found and everything they want to do and all their reasons. They need to tell you what the reasons are but also the risks and potential side effects. And if they have a problem with you wanting a second opinion before starting a treatment, then you need another doctor. There is a lot of poor medical care throughout the world. It's your life and you should be the one making the decisions based on their and other's advice. They are not the decision maker and most importantly they are not ones who should be playing God. They aren't gods. Just humans with human fallacies.

And 2nd mate watchkeepers, someone better be watching them and managing them.
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Old 11-11-2014, 00:56   #330
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Re: Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

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And 2nd mate watchkeepers, someone better be watching them and managing them.
At the age of 20 years and a few months I - along with many of my peers - was unleashed on an unsuspecting world as a watchkeeper with a brand new 2nd mates ticket...standing a solo watch with just the lookout for company.

The old man would appear at about 2200 to sign his night orders and that would be it.....

Thats the way it was and thats pretty much the way it is....
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