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Old 30-07-2009, 08:59   #46
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To review the situation.
I was on Starboard Tack, in the channel with a shoal to port, board down drawing 9', doing 7 knots, rail in the water, wind was 15-18 gusting to 27 (apparent). If I had tacked, I would have tacked into another group of racers, falling off would have put me port of the green mark. So I held my course.
I do normally try to avoid racers, but this was unavoidable without extraordinary measures.
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Old 31-07-2009, 10:15   #47
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IMO you did exactly the right thing.

Racers tend to yell a lot. Adrenaline and lack of skills are the predominant reasons.
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Old 31-07-2009, 10:29   #48
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Some racers have skill and you're safe around them, others don't and are unsafe to be near, others are hapless and can be used as picks to clear a spot or shake a competitor. Know your playmates. When the Maui Jim's go on, the empathy goes away, you are either a competitor to be beaten or a hindrance to use or avoid.

No yelling required.

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Racers tend to yell a lot.
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Old 31-07-2009, 11:15   #49
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I do - but every time I give them room and they dont so much as wave back, gives me a little less desire to do it next time.
I`m with you 100% on this one, a gesture of acknowledgement would go a long way.
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Old 31-07-2009, 11:50   #50
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My buddy and I were out sailing one gorgeous afternoon going nowhere but at the time heading back to the mooring about 10 miles upwind. We were on starboard sailing about 6 knots. A J something was on port going down wind and it was full of what looked like 6 female students (a distraction?) and a male skipper teacher who was showing them how to set the chute. That makes 7 sailors 14 eyes!

We watched at we approached a collision waiting to see if the skipper, or anyone for that matter would recognize that we were the stand on vessel and change their coarse. We could easily fall off and go behind them.

We waited to the last possible moment to wake up the skpper and crew and teach them a lesson - YOU MUST PAY ATTENTION... I screamed, "T bones tonight," and the guy ran like crazy to the helm and gybed looking very sheepish. I hope that supplemented the lesson about setting the chute.
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Old 05-08-2009, 07:58   #51
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We usually make a point of going around a race course. It's pretty fun to come up on a parallel course for one leg and have the racers stare slack jawed as they get passed by the "antique".
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:11   #52
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Redcobra, your details left out in your original post changes things a little. With the details in you latter post I am sure we all agree that you did the right thing. I am also sure that you know you did the right thing. So what comments are you specifically wanting to hear about? I hope that it is not a way to start pointless arguements between people.
There is a site called Youtube if you really want to read some nasty stuff.
The fact is that there are two types of people in the world. People that will speed their cars up to close off a space for a fellow driver looking to merge, and people that will Sometimes give them room. People who sail into race coarses when they have other options are the first kind of people. And to save wasted replys: I wrote "when they have other options"

Maybe I'll start a post asking people to comment on whether or not they would give a roll of toilet paper to a fellow cruiser when they ran out.
The posts to follow would be about as predictable.
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Old 05-08-2009, 15:15   #53
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Yep, bear-baiting is always the same, regardless of details. And most threads if they go on long enough end in that category. Early on, this seemed to be a more legitimate thread.
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Old 05-08-2009, 15:39   #54
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Ettiquete would say keep clear of the fleet as much as possible, reality is things like happed to you happen. You did no wrong that I can tell. Racing skippers yell, that might have been a compliment!
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Old 05-08-2009, 17:55   #55
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It is always worth remembering that racers can be right on the edge of control so it is safer to leave wide separation when we can. I also add windsurfers to racing yachts that try to evade you - just keep that fishing line out of the water!
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Old 10-08-2009, 16:10   #56
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I try to stay out of their way just because it is a pain to have to watch out for all of them. But if they don't stop racing back and forth across the channels I going to have to start applying the "bigger boat" rule on them (my hull alreay needs refinishing so they should take notice).
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Old 13-08-2009, 09:40   #57
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PLEASE - stop using the term "right-of-way." It does not exist in the marine world or the COLREGS. There is the "Stand-on" and the "Give-way" vessels. "Right of way" does not exist because of Rule 7&8&17 - Both or any vessel must do what is necessary to avoid a collision regardless of any other rule. And do it as early as possible.
There are only two basic concepts behind the COLREGs that you need to know - 1. (based on Rule 18 for sailboats) you stay out of the way of vessels that are "restricted" in their ability to maneuver. Classically a large freighter/cruise ship and other obviously restricted vessels must be avoided. So besides size and weight maybe even "stupidity" or "arrogance" should be added to that category as they are obvious so focused as to be oblivious to anybody else. And 2. Rule 7&8&17 require that you must do whatever is necessary as early as possible to avoid a collision regardless of the other Rules.
- - Just about every response has been along those lines - stay out of the way of everybody stupider than you. And in the case of kids and others, simple courtesy calls for avoiding the area. I have even stopped my 60footer in a channel to wait until the "little ducklings cross the street." With supposedly "grown ups" is it really necessary to assert yourself in a duel of ego's?
- - There is NO right-of-way in COLREGS, only common sense rules to keep collisions to a minimum. You will both loose when standing in court with your boats on the bottom and maybe arms in bandages and slings because of Rule 7&8&17. Both are responsible to take action to avoid a collision regardless of any other rule. You cannot win and you just lost your boat, or badly damaged it, or yourself.
- - Unfortunately in the real world rules and laws are made to be broken or ignored. We all do it one way or another and one time or another. "PYA" in "PYB" protect your A.. or Boat is my policy. The cost and time in paperwork is not worth the 10 seconds or so I save on getting to my destination and more importantly I like my boat and do not want to damage it. One early interesting problem that popped up on southern Florida waterways a number of years ago was that the COLREGS are only printed in English and a huge amount of new boaters to the area only spoke Spanish. That was fun. We had to modify the mythical Rule of Tonnage from if the vessel is bigger and heavier than you stay out of its way to if the Vessel is also faster, more expensive, or had lots of silicon enhanced beauties on board, stop, give way, and enjoy the sights until they are clear, then continue.
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Old 13-08-2009, 09:55   #58
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Bear baiting

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Originally Posted by gs41escapade View Post
Yep, bear-baiting is always the same, regardless of details. And most threads if they go on long enough end in that category. Early on, this seemed to be a more legitimate thread.
I was not trying to "bear bait." I always try to avoid racers where possible. However, this chap seemd to think he was the stand-on vessel because he was racing, or thought if he ignored me I would give way.
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Old 13-08-2009, 13:42   #59
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What is encouraging is discussions like this is that there actually good folks out there who have read and try to abide by COLREGS - Those racers and many more "others" simply do not know that COLREGS exist, least of all what is in them. The danger I perceive is that unless we do our extra best to abide by them and avoid "incidents" or arguments about who was right and who was wrong - we will end up with (what sometimes has be referred to as a '4-letter word') government stepping in and deciding we need operator licensing, classes and testing and lots of fees. I don't think many of us want to see that happen - another layer of aggravation and useless money spent on fees. And look where automobile operators licenses has accomplished in road safety? I would hate to see that happen to sailing and boating in general.
I do think that threads evolve from simple basic questions to more complex concepts just as conversations around a living room evolve round and round and hopefully increase the knowledge and clarify of thoughts we might not have considered otherwise. That is natural in human discourse which is why Robert's Rules exists for serious debating competitions.
Back to the original subject of traversing through a group of racers - I find it extremely aggravating that the racers have no concept that there are other users out on the water. More enlightened racing clubs actually post notices to mariners properly coordinated with the Coast Guard and local marine authorities that there will be a "closed area" during the race. That information is then conveyed to mariners by the USCG notices announced on the VHF radio. That is done in south Florida and then establishes a zone for the racers to safely concentrate on their art of sailing to the max. Unfortunately there are other places were the club racers just "take over" and expect the rest of us to stay away.
And what do you do if you have a medical emergency onboard or a disabled vessel and the racers are blocking your direct route to help and safety? I think that subject falls in the original thread of racers versus other sailors.
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Old 13-08-2009, 14:17   #60
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up to you

1) you may, but you do not have to, give way,

2) if you decide to give way, you have to do it very early - before there is any doubt of collision,

3) in this specific situation it was too late and you should stick to your original decision, (still, if there was any risk of collision, you were supposed to take action to avoid the collision),

4) mind they may be more limited by draft than you are - some of the racing machines have very, very deep keels,

5) mind most racing crews keep very good lookout and are very good at judging their speed/track - they are not likely to hit you, but they may be passing you by in a distance that you may find uncomfortable,
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