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Old 17-07-2016, 17:10   #106
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I hold my course for a while. When it looks to me like the other boat isn't going to give way, I do. I'll generally turn to where there is more room, or if closehauled, I'll bear away.


And I do this long before a collision is imminent.

I'd do this whether the other boat was a motorboat, a motorsailing sailboat or whatever. I'm not going to crash my boat to prove a point.
I don't think I've ever suggested crashing to prove a point. I don't think we are substantially different in our approach then. As they go by and wave cluelessly, wave back and think to yourself "feckin idiot."
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Old 17-07-2016, 18:08   #107
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Did I say that? No, I said a large manoeuvre could put him into irons. Have you ever sailed in really light winds? Unless I have somewhere to be, I don't mind ghosting at a knot and half, and in a big old heavy boat like mine, that means rounding up will pretty much stop you dead. Can usually do better bearing off, but if there's any residual swell, it can be real slow getting out of the trough and too much rudder is like hitting the brakes.

***
But when you encountered what appeared to be a stand on vessel, would you not have made the small course correction early on, so that your cumbersome vessel could safely and easily avoid the stand on vessel? I would have...
******


But if the other guy is sailing in the same winds, he is also going comparably slow, so a small course adjustment is much more effective.

***
Exactly my point.
***


Well the difficulty comes in not knowing whether or not he will follow the Colregs as I would, or if he'll ignore the colregs as you would. As I frequently preach, the value of Colregs is predictability.

*******
At this point, what you see is a vessel under sail. You don't know that he is motoring. How has this lead you to doubt that he will follow the rules? Not a logical argument IMO.
*****


So why don't all sailboats just avoid all powerboats then? You do understand the whole raison d'etre of rule 18 is that the more manoeuvrable vessel should be the one that does the manoeuvring.

***
Is this not an absurd projection? We are talking about a vessel apparently under sail, not powerboats.
*****



Not displaying the cone is a minor issue, but it's a whole other kettle of fish to be motor-sailing and treat yourself as a sailboat. Rule 3(c):

****
At the point where you would make your avoiding maneuver, you don't know whether the other vessel will behave as a m/v or a s/v. Because you do not know that he is motoring why would you not assume that he will behave as a s/v? In that situation, why not fall off a few degrees and pass astern of him? Yes, you should not have needed to do this, but to me it is not a big deal.
****


I wonder if someone sounded 5 short blasts on their whistle, would you have understood the meaning?
Lodesman, your arguments have become increasingly obtuse, and now in your final sentence, you imply that I am an incompetent moron of a sailor... sheesh... just because we disagree on the importance of displaying the motorsailing cone is not an excuse to be insulting.

Jim
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Old 17-07-2016, 18:43   #108
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

agree
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Old 18-07-2016, 00:09   #109
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I hold my course for a while. When it looks to me like the other boat isn't going to give way, I do. I'll generally turn to where there is more room, or if closehauled, I'll bear away.


And I do this long before a collision is imminent.

I'd do this whether the other boat was a motorboat, a motorsailing sailboat or whatever. I'm not going to crash my boat to prove a point.
Exactly the right approach, as required both by good seamanship, as well as by the Rules.


That situation is much easier to deal with, however, if the vessel in question is showing a motoring cone and is following the Rules in other respects as well.

It is certainly true that failing to show the cone is probably lost in a sea of other violations, and maybe doesn't make much difference. The average yachtsman (not necessarily saying that this describes any of the present company) has such a poor understanding of collision avoidance and of what the Rules demand, that the average commercial mariner doesn't even try to figure out what the amateur intends to do. So you can say that showing the cone doesn't make any difference. It only takes one vessel doing collision avoidance well, to prevent a collision (one of the ingenious aspects of the Rules). If you're satisfied with that, then -- well go ahead, don't show a cone, don't stand on when it's required, follow the lubberly and non-existent "rule of tonnage", maneuver willy nilly according to your inspiration, don't bother to analyze crossings with ships -- just do it by eye and by feel, etc., etc., etc. -- it's ok, because the guys on that ship's bridge can deal with the situation in any case without your help.


In my opinion it would be much better if we would all try to do it with more skill and competence, and showing the cone might be just a tiny little thing, but it's a thing nonetheless. It not only shows the ship you're crossing with, that you are a motor vessel, it shows the passing ship that you have a brain and at least some minimal knowledge, and that means to him that you will most likely follow the Rules in other respects, besides just showing the cone, and this is already more than the tiny little thing.
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Old 18-07-2016, 03:50   #110
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Agreed there's no excuse for colliding, but one of the vessels is considerably more manoeuvrable. I don't know how familiar you are with sailing, but the guy under sail in this scenario will not be quick to answer the helm and any large manoeuvre would likely put him into irons (leave him dead in the water).
This is just stupid!

If you are sailing and are going to cross with a vessel that you believe is sailing and would have right of way, wouldn't you plan to manoeuvre your vessel to avoid a collision in such a way that you don't go into irons?

If it turns out they are motor sailing, how will you end up in irons?

Perhaps you might end up in irons because you tried to cross in front of them and misjudged their speed? That would indicate poor seamanship.

The lack of a day shape cone on a motor sailing vessel is nothing more than an inconvenience to sailors.

Use common sense and COLREGS together and everything will be fine.





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Old 18-07-2016, 03:51   #111
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Question to the people here who work on the bridge of large commercial vessels. If mid ocean you spot a small sailing boat 5nm ahead that you will cross with


what do you do if

1) they have their sails up?
2) they do not have sails up and are making way and you are the stand on vessel?
3) their sails are up, but half a mile from them you finally spot a cone
because they are motor sailing?



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Old 18-07-2016, 04:03   #112
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
Question to the people here who work on the bridge of large commercial vessels. If mid ocean you spot a small sailing boat 5nm ahead that you will cross with


what do you do if

1) they have their sails up?
2) they do not have sails up and are making way and you are the stand on vessel?
3) their sails are up, but half a mile from them you finally spot a cone
because they are motor sailing?



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assuming a steady bearing....
1/ Give way
2/ Stand on with caution
3/ I would already have given way
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Old 18-07-2016, 04:08   #113
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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assuming a steady bearing....

1/ Give way

2/ Stand on with caution

3/ I would already have given way
So the day shape is probably of no help to commercial shipping? Unless you could see a small black cone from much further off than half a mile?


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Old 18-07-2016, 04:27   #114
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

I don't understand this thread ..... brake lights or headlights on your car are not optional either.
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Old 18-07-2016, 04:36   #115
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

'So the day shape is probably of no help to commercial shipping?'
Zackery, and if you are inbound in the Solent and are about to give her a bit of 'right hand down a bit' you wouldn't care what they were showing.

Also in the open ocean.. if you had the yacht on AIS then penny to a pound she would have been displayed as '36 - Vessel - Sailing' regardless of whether she has her sails up, down, or inside out....
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Old 18-07-2016, 18:31   #116
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Lodesman, your arguments have become increasingly obtuse, and now in your final sentence, you imply that I am an incompetent moron of a sailor... sheesh... just because we disagree on the importance of displaying the motorsailing cone is not an excuse to be insulting.
Jim
Jim I did not mean to imply you're a moron - the sentence was a sarcastic but friendly jab at what appears to be your wilful ignorance of a particular rule. I'm sorry it came across as insulting. You'll remember I entered this thread saying your response was surprising as I consider yours a voice of reason and wisdom; that remains a fact, although I can't agree with you about this.

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Is this not an absurd projection? We are talking about a vessel apparently under sail, not powerboats.
We are talking about a powerboat, that happens to have a sail. You expect powerboats to stay out of the way of sailboats, so that is how you should behave. You keep saying you see it as "no big deal", so for the life of me I can't comprehend why it is you find it so hard to just follow the rules - it's no big deal either.

Between you and Hoppy there were a number of other points I wanted to address, but I don't have the time at the moment - I'll post in a day or a few, and I hope it makes my side a little clearer.
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Old 19-07-2016, 01:29   #117
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

I don't have a cone, or actually even a ball, but then I tend to anchor in places not inhabited by larger vessels.


Even if I had a cone I would most probably forget to put it up when I started the engine anyway.


If I have room I just dodge everyone. It's easier than any of the alternatives.


I try to manoeuvre distinctly to telegraph my intentions to the other boat.
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Old 19-07-2016, 02:01   #118
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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. . . If I have room I just dodge everyone. It's easier than any of the alternatives.. . . .
What if you "just dodge" at the very same moment, and in the same direction, that a give-way boat maneuvers to avoid you? If you are the stand-on vessel according to the Rules, the give-way vessel is entitled to rely on your holding course and speed so that his maneuver brings him clear of you. Standing-on is an obligation, not a privilege.

Many ships have been sunk and thousands of lives have been lost as a result of "just dodging" -- vessels maneuvering in an uncoordinated way and "dodging" into each other. That's not the way to do collision avoidance. The Rules were invented to bring order and make it clear who maneuvers when. A boat which, rather than maneuvering in the order required by the Rules, "just dodges", is a menace to navigation. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's really not overstating the case.
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Old 19-07-2016, 02:07   #119
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Dockhead is correct, just dodging everyone can really upset the apple cart.

Remember, the other ship/boat may have seen you way before you saw them, and if they are obliged to give way, may have already done so, or are in the process of doing so.
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Old 19-07-2016, 02:57   #120
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Just dodge,..... rule of tonnage,..... equals poor seamanship.

Not only unpredictably dangerous, also a major inconvenience if your trying to get anywhere efficiently.

In the Alabama and Florida panhandle bays while bay/day sailing if one dodges every barge travelling there it would very frustrating.

Day sailed hundreds of times there on three bays connected by two choke points. When I first got there I would tack back from the points when a barge was approaching the points. Which certainly got old quick.

After a couple of months, and having plowed most of the bottom around the edges of the area, and coming to understand the land effects on light winds through those points, I finally started sharing the water with those big guys.

Their maneuvers were predictable, and they were stand on in the ICW. I was sailing the bays the ICW cut through. So just a matter of being comfortable handling my boat in the conditions present, and timing my tacks so as not to impede.

Met the barges in the tight spots many times thereafter. Never got cussed out or run down. Got hailed by barge captains a couple of times to tell me they were sailors too and offer up a comment like, good to see a skipper that can sail for a change.
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