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Old 16-07-2016, 11:06   #91
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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I have read a lot of your posts mate and your "attitude" comes across OK with me, some folks are just unnaturally sensitive and will break into print without a lot of provocation.
Raymond, if you are out sailing, say ghosting along at a couple knots on a port tack in light winds and another sailboat approaches on a stbd tack, and although it's not showing a cone, it's clearly motoring as it's making hull-speed in no more than 5 kts apparent wind - what will you do?
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Old 16-07-2016, 15:36   #92
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

certainly not collide...which is really the argument by no-day shapers...if you collide in a couple of small vessels.....you deserve whatever happens.

I am a big rule follower too, cones, balls, proper lights, rules on board and memorized...etc..etc...

but really, even the US Coasties and most marine police don't know, dont care.

not a great thing...but...hardly an excuse for a collision between 2 small, maneuverable, slow moving vessels.
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Old 16-07-2016, 15:41   #93
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Raymond, if you are out sailing, say ghosting along at a couple knots on a port tack in light winds and another sailboat approaches on a stbd tack, and although it's not showing a cone, it's clearly motoring as it's making hull-speed in no more than 5 kts apparent wind - what will you do?
Been there, done that. I got out of his way.
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Old 17-07-2016, 05:56   #94
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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not a great thing...but...hardly an excuse for a collision between 2 small, maneuverable, slow moving vessels.
Agreed there's no excuse for colliding, but one of the vessels is considerably more manoeuvrable. I don't know how familiar you are with sailing, but the guy under sail in this scenario will not be quick to answer the helm and any large manoeuvre would likely put him into irons (leave him dead in the water). Of course he could always fire up his engine too, but if's he's going to motor every time he meets another boat, there's really no point in having sails, is there?
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Old 17-07-2016, 06:05   #95
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Been there, done that. I got out of his way.
Do you ever stand on? How do you decide which way to go?
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Old 17-07-2016, 08:27   #96
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Do you ever stand on? How do you decide which way to go?
Tonnage usually rules. Commercial rules. Military rules. Once you get down to pleasure boats, the rules demand evasive action if collision is imminent, regardless of privilege. And sometimes screwups happen.
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Old 17-07-2016, 09:15   #97
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Tonnage usually rules. Commercial rules. Military rules. Once you get down to pleasure boats, the rules demand evasive action if collision is imminent, regardless of privilege. And sometimes screwups happen.
Funny you should say that. You probably don't know that I spent a career at sea. I would say the vast majority of large vessels (commercial and military) obey the rules - that goes from my experience driving big grey things with guns on them, as well as my own itty-bitty boats. Most of the interactions I've had where the other vessel has done something unpredictable, dangerous and/or just plain stupid, it was a pleasure vessel. Small commercial vessels (fishing, sightseeing and for some reason, para-sailing) also accounted for a high percentage of dangerous stupidity.

The scenario described, did not involve tonnage, commercial or military. And it didn't put the collision as imminent - it was the start of the interaction where the sailboat is the stand-on vessel. The question remains, would you stand-on?
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Old 17-07-2016, 09:45   #98
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Funny you should say that. You probably don't know that I spent a career at sea. I would say the vast majority of large vessels (commercial and military) obey the rules - that goes from my experience driving big grey things with guns on them, as well as my own itty-bitty boats. Most of the interactions I've had where the other vessel has done something unpredictable, dangerous and/or just plain stupid, it was a pleasure vessel. Small commercial vessels (fishing, sightseeing and for some reason, para-sailing) also accounted for a high percentage of dangerous stupidity.

The scenario described, did not involve tonnage, commercial or military. And it didn't put the collision as imminent - it was the start of the interaction where the sailboat is the stand-on vessel. The question remains, would you stand-on?
Funny you should say that. I was referring to sailboats vs. all other boats. You do not interfere with a military vessel, regardless of the right of way rules. They often are dragging underwater acoustic equipment that can extend outwards of a quarter mile behind them. Commercial boats usually have lane limitations. Big boats many times can not see a small puddle jumper, and certainly can not move quickly.
But to answer your specific question, yes stand on so the other vessel knows your intentions rather than run all over the place and confusing the other vessel.
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Old 17-07-2016, 11:40   #99
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Funny you should say that. Not sure what you found funny?
I was referring to sailboats vs. all other boats. I gathered that. Understand that I was saying that so-called tonnage/commercial/military rules are nonsense. The big guys would appreciate it if you know and follow the Rules.
You do not interfere with a military vessel, regardless of the right of way rules. They often are dragging underwater acoustic equipment that can extend outwards of a quarter mile behind them. Actually quite a bit further than that, but that's inconsequential as you'd have to be going pretty fast to close enough to their transoms to be a problem. I can't speak for all navies, but by and large they follow the rules; if they are constrained somehow then they will display NUC or RAM dayshapes/lights. Minesweepers have their own signal - it's in the rules - you don't want to interfere with them.
Commercial boats usually have lane limitations. Those will be on your chart. Rule 10.
Big boats many times can not see a small puddle jumper, and certainly can not move quickly. Poppycock.
But to answer your specific question, yes stand on so the other vessel knows your intentions rather than run all over the place and confusing the other vessel.
Quite agree, unless the other vessel is a 46' Jon Sayer fractional-rigged sloop
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Old 17-07-2016, 13:01   #100
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Always enjoy reading these types of threads. Knowledgeable boaters sharing their experience and opinion is good reading.

Myself, I guess I'm in the dedicated amateur catagory with six years full time onboard coastal wandering. When underway I work hard to stay aware and follow the rules to my best ability. I actually enjoy the challenge to present myself and my actions on the water as a competent seaman.

However, I do not have a ball or cone. In six years I have never seen a cone in use on the water. I think I have seen an anchor ball once or twice.

I think it's worth pointing out again that displaying an inverted cone while motoring is not required in US waters for boats under 12 meters (39' 4.4"). Considering the majority of the sailboats I see are under this length maybe that speaks to thier absence.

So from a practical point of view. Two boats apparently under sail are crossing. Must we impose a judgement of boat length to determine burden? Must we impose a judgement of a boat's speed capabilities for the conditions to determine burden?

It seems much more practical and in line with what I have experienced to decide that a boat with sails up during the day is in fact sailing. Certainly that is what the power boaters determine.

I rarely have ever motorsailed. If the course and winds compliment I sail out the pass and on my way. If not, I motor offshore and then set sail.

So some thought is in order to this subject from reading this thread.
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Old 17-07-2016, 13:44   #101
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

In our sailing grounds, Spanish waters, I can't recall ever seeing the inverted cone. The black anchoring balls are very common though--my totally unscientific guess would be that 60-75% of sailboats use them. Motor boats, not so much, although the large motor yachts with professional crews all do.
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Old 17-07-2016, 13:46   #102
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Agreed there's no excuse for colliding, but one of the vessels is considerably more manoeuvrable. I don't know how familiar you are with sailing, but the guy under sail in this scenario will not be quick to answer the helm and any large manoeuvre would likely put him into irons (leave him dead in the water). Of course he could always fire up his engine too, but if's he's going to motor every time he meets another boat, there's really no point in having sails, is there?
Surely you are not serious... are you? To say that when your hypothetical port tack boat can't make a course adjustment to avoid a starboard tack boat who is in fact motorsailing without going into irons or starting your own engine is pretty silly. In crowded waters, one makes such avoiding maneuvers frequently, and it does not really matter whether the starboard tack boat has his engine running or not. If he was sailing, you would avoid him without even thinking much about it, wouldn't you? Yes, COLREGS say that you should not have been forced to avoid, but in my view, it isn't a big deal. I just don't understand why his having his engine on suddenly makes avoiding him so difficult for you.

As an aside, his being motorsailing actually makes him somewhat easier to avoid, since his course will likely be more consistent, not being constrained to follow wind shifts.

As you apparently were the CO on a naval vessel, I'm sure that you have knowledge and skills that I do not. But I have managed a lot of years and a hell of a lot of sailing miles, and that experience has lead to my opinion on this subject. To be clear about it, that opinion is that not flying the m/s cone has not been shown to be a practical hazard to safety, and does not disrupt the flow of sailing traffic in the waters in which I have sailed.

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Old 17-07-2016, 13:50   #103
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Quite agree, unless the other vessel is a 46' Jon Sayer fractional-rigged sloop
True, speed creates its own rules
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Old 17-07-2016, 14:43   #104
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Do you ever stand on? How do you decide which way to go?
I hold my course for a while. When it looks to me like the other boat isn't going to give way, I do. I'll generally turn to where there is more room, or if closehauled, I'll bear away.


And I do this long before a collision is imminent.

I'd do this whether the other boat was a motorboat, a motorsailing sailboat or whatever. I'm not going to crash my boat to prove a point.
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Old 17-07-2016, 17:04   #105
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Surely you are not serious... are you? To say that when your hypothetical port tack boat can't make a course adjustment to avoid a starboard tack boat who is in fact motorsailing without going into irons or starting your own engine is pretty silly.
Did I say that? No, I said a large manoeuvre could put him into irons. Have you ever sailed in really light winds? Unless I have somewhere to be, I don't mind ghosting at a knot and half, and in a big old heavy boat like mine, that means rounding up will pretty much stop you dead. Can usually do better bearing off, but if there's any residual swell, it can be real slow getting out of the trough and too much rudder is like hitting the brakes.

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In crowded waters, one makes such avoiding maneuvers frequently, and it does not really matter whether the starboard tack boat has his engine running or not. If he was sailing, you would avoid him without even thinking much about it, wouldn't you?
But if the other guy is sailing in the same winds, he is also going comparably slow, so a small course adjustment is much more effective.

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Yes, COLREGS say that you should not have been forced to avoid, but in my view, it isn't a big deal. I just don't understand why his having his engine on suddenly makes avoiding him so difficult for you.
Well the difficulty comes in not knowing whether or not he will follow the Colregs as I would, or if he'll ignore the colregs as you would. As I frequently preach, the value of Colregs is predictability.

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As an aside, his being motorsailing actually makes him somewhat easier to avoid, since his course will likely be more consistent, not being constrained to follow wind shifts.
So why don't all sailboats just avoid all powerboats then? You do understand the whole raison d'etre of rule 18 is that the more manoeuvrable vessel should be the one that does the manoeuvring.

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To be clear about it, that opinion is that not flying the m/s cone has not been shown to be a practical hazard to safety, and does not disrupt the flow of sailing traffic in the waters in which I have sailed.
Not displaying the cone is a minor issue, but it's a whole other kettle of fish to be motor-sailing and treat yourself as a sailboat. Rule 3(c):

Quote:
The term sailing vessel means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
I wonder if someone sounded 5 short blasts on their whistle, would you have understood the meaning?
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