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Old 14-07-2016, 09:56   #61
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Agree prudence is usually a good defence. In my own defence re the incidence mentioned I point out that tacking would put me further into the informal traffic lane and falling off into the shore measured in hundreds of meters with tide pushing us both of us to rocks .My speed of 3 or 4 knots his maybe 20. Could have fended him off with a BB gun .His defence was his day shapes. Worked better than common sense. Since I have avoided collision for 40 years before AIS was invented one can form their own opinions about the use of common sense over colregs
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Old 14-07-2016, 10:04   #62
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

It's the law - http://www.collisionregs.com/MSN1781.pdf
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Old 14-07-2016, 11:26   #63
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Something I learned while driving in Korea
Mass X Velocity = Right of Way
Since that time I have applied that rule to boating, if it's bigger then me, and especially if it's faster, I go out of my way, to get out of its way.
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Old 14-07-2016, 13:28   #64
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by topmast View Post
In a well trafficked area right in front of Victoria harbour I narrowly escaped a collision under sail with a Canadian war ship .Apparently the day shapes obscured in their rigging told of engine tests and a reluctance to change course. In spite of my large red gaff sails and a monitored VHF it was my bad .Day shapes matter
Canadian war ships don't usually have rigging. What day shapes were being displayed, and why do you think it involved engines tests?
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Old 14-07-2016, 14:06   #65
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

^^ just guessing . . . .signal flag rather than day shape . . . perhaps


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but that is perhaps even less commonly understood/recognized than day shapes.
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Old 14-07-2016, 14:15   #66
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
This is a surprising and somewhat disturbing attitude. Your assumption is that you are only putting out motor vessels, so it doesn't matter. What about other (actual) sail vessels - if they're upwind or port to your apparent stbd, they'll unnecessarily assume the burden. And what confusion would ensue if you while motoring also manoeuvre (as would be required) - you might both alter towards each other. The point of the cone, as well as the anchor ball is courtesy towards other vessels. It eliminates doubt about another vessel's status and permits predictability in how vessels will manoeuvre to avoid other vessels.
I always use both the motoring cone and anchor ball.
For the penguin, if the genoa is furled, I connect the cone between a spare halyard and a cleat on the foredeck on a strop that places it about 2 m above the deck. If the genoa is out, I tend to hoist it at the windward spreader. I reckon this puts it in the best position to warn sailboats that would consider themselves burdened to me if I was just sailing. It's not ideally located for handling a PDV to PDV crossing situation, but I get around that by manoeuvring early, which then displays the cone to the PDV that was on my stbd.
I'm sorry if my attitude disturbs you, but I still believe that it represents a fairly nonhazardous situation, one which is encountered routinely and nearly universally, and which has not resulted in numerous collisions, or even near misses. I am convinced of this since in all my years of sailing, I have never seen the cone displayed, and from the posts above, this seems to be true for most sailors in this part of the world (non-European waters in general).

I also point out that I didn't suggest that I was only referring to interactions with motor vessels. The same result is reached: the unfairly burdened vessel has to avoid you when legally he did not need to do so. Big deal... we sailors do this routinely, and in many crowded venues, many of us have learned to never completely trust our fellows to follow COLREGS. Only while racing have I ever really expected others to behave properly, and even there a degree of circumspection is beneficial to one's topside paint! And expecting the average flash m/y to follow the rules is folly IMO and IME. Some do, many do not.

I of course agree that COLREGS is clear about the requirement; no question about that. But I wonder how many of the vessels that you have encountered whilst displaying the cone even saw it, let alone understood its meaning and then responded appropriately?

Again, I apologize if my attitude disturbs you; I have tried to be honest about it.

Jim
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Old 14-07-2016, 14:25   #67
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Always use them. Any photo of Gilana anchored or motoring with sail will show the correct day-shape, in fact I have never seen her at anchor without the ball, in 18 years.
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Old 14-07-2016, 14:59   #68
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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The same result is reached: the unfairly burdened vessel has to avoid you when legally he did not need to do so. Big deal...
By that reasoning, why bother having rules at all? Why shouldn't we all just stand on until one of us blinks? A big game of chicken.
As I said, it has to do with courtesy - it's not because you have to do it - it's a matter of treating other sailors the way you would like them to treat you.
The argument that the rules aren't being followed in many places is sad - we as concerned sailors (by that I mean that by participating in these forums we are trying to educate ourselves and pass on what we've learned, so are obviously concerned with being better sailors) should be trying to make the boating world better and safer for everyone, and that means promoting the use of proper signals. Perhaps the reason they demand their use in Europe is that they do expect more competence out of their boaters.
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Old 14-07-2016, 15:12   #69
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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I'm sorry if my attitude disturbs you, but I still believe that it represents a fairly nonhazardous situation, one which is encountered routinely and nearly universally, and which has not resulted in numerous collisions, or even near misses. I am convinced of this since in all my years of sailing, I have never seen the cone displayed, and from the posts above, this seems to be true for most sailors in this part of the world (non-European waters in general).

I also point out that I didn't suggest that I was only referring to interactions with motor vessels. The same result is reached: the unfairly burdened vessel has to avoid you when legally he did not need to do so. Big deal... we sailors do this routinely, and in many crowded venues, many of us have learned to never completely trust our fellows to follow COLREGS. Only while racing have I ever really expected others to behave properly, and even there a degree of circumspection is beneficial to one's topside paint! And expecting the average flash m/y to follow the rules is folly IMO and IME. Some do, many do not.

I of course agree that COLREGS is clear about the requirement; no question about that. But I wonder how many of the vessels that you have encountered whilst displaying the cone even saw it, let alone understood its meaning and then responded appropriately?

Again, I apologize if my attitude disturbs you; I have tried to be honest about it.

Jim
Good gravy stains, probably 95% or more sailors do not use balls, cones, nor even sound signals, ever. And the world continues to turn. Doubt if any recreational sailors would know flag signals or what blasts on horns mean.
Even commercial sailors often ignore the regs. A famous shipping company on the West Coast uses strobe lights on their ships because, well, strobes are easy to see at night. Not in the regs. About the only folks who follow the regs exactly are Navy folks, dedicated amateurs, and law enforcement. Even then, do not expect a naval vessel to display lights at night, use an anchor ball, and so forth. So in short, you are in good company by disregarding the regs.
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Old 14-07-2016, 15:13   #70
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Lodesman Don't recall what the shapes/flags? were. I hauled up and tacked under power (faster with the started engine) chatted with a crew on the stern as they went by. He pointed out that they were flying shapes in the mess of antenna above the bridge and mentioned engine tests What do I know. Just glad my taxes help to train such friendly personnel
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Old 14-07-2016, 15:19   #71
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Canadian war ships don't usually have rigging. What day shapes were being displayed, and why do you think it involved engines tests?
Hum, so what's that mast aft of the bridge with all those flags on it? Sure looks like rigging.
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Old 14-07-2016, 16:29   #72
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
By that reasoning, why bother having rules at all? Why shouldn't we all just stand on until one of us blinks? A big game of chicken.
As I said, it has to do with courtesy - it's not because you have to do it - it's a matter of treating other sailors the way you would like them to treat you.
The argument that the rules aren't being followed in many places is sad - we as concerned sailors (by that I mean that by participating in these forums we are trying to educate ourselves and pass on what we've learned, so are obviously concerned with being better sailors) should be trying to make the boating world better and safer for everyone, and that means promoting the use of proper signals. Perhaps the reason they demand their use in Europe is that they do expect more competence out of their boaters.
Lodesman, the logic of your first statement escapes me...

And when the near universal non-observance of the cone rule has not resulted in collisions or other disasters, how is observance going to "make the boating world better and safer for everyone"?

You and I seem to view the world differently, and while I can admire your steadfast and invariable adherence to this rule, I can not see how it materially improves the world of sailing.

Jim
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Old 14-07-2016, 16:44   #73
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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And when the near universal non-observance of the cone rule has not resulted in collisions or other disasters, how is observance going to "make the boating world better and safer for everyone"?
You can not make that statement, as you nor I truthfully know whether or not there've been collisions or other disasters, due to this. The reality is that most scrapes or near-misses by the small-boating set go unreported. I also stick to my stbd side in channels, try to pass red-to-red with head-on boats, and other such niceties, with varying success - a cause of the woeful ignorance of most recreational boaters. They're the rules and I will follow them. Perhaps one day you'll see my way of thinking; until then fair winds and stay safe.
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Old 14-07-2016, 16:46   #74
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Hum, so what's that mast aft of the bridge with all those flags on it? Sure looks like rigging.
When do signal halyards constitute "rigging"? Since the aforementioned signals would have been hoisted on selfsame, they would not have been responsible for obscuring said signals.
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Old 14-07-2016, 16:49   #75
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

I have not heard of many people using day shapes but seeing how cheap they are with Defender, no reason not to have them. I'll order the ball and inverted cone.

Thanks all for this info.
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