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Old 13-07-2016, 15:24   #46
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by kas_1611 View Post
My Admiral calls me OCD about it but I try to use the Anchor Ball every time we drop the hook. We do have the motor sailing cone but have yet to use it.



For the anchor ball my thinking is better to be safe than sorry. If I have it hoisted and some muppet runs into me then my insurance won't quibble, if I don't then they'll wiggle out of paying.

I'm with you there. I always show an anchor ball when the hook is down because I'm a great believer in minimising risk as much as possible. Especially when the measure taken costs so little time and effort. It's also pleasant to observe the customs and laws of the sea.
I used to hear an old joke that asked "What does an inverted black cone in the fore triangle mean?"
Answer: " There is an examiner on board".


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Old 13-07-2016, 16:24   #47
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

The text actually reads " shall exhibit ... a conical shape, apex downward." See Rule 25, paragraph (e) in Rules of the Road. Applies to all sailing vessels under Intl rules and vessels over 12 m Inland with sails up while also being propelled by machinery. By the way, if your vessel is over 12m in length, you are required to have a copy of the USCG Nautical Rules of the Road on board, plus a bell, while underway. Cheers,, Pappy
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Old 13-07-2016, 16:50   #48
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

I got the day shapes from Defender. Nothing wrong with doing the right thing.
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Old 13-07-2016, 17:35   #49
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Sent a reply earlier,, seems it disappeared. Rule 25 para (e) of Rules of the Road: "Conical shape, apex downward" is the exact terminology... and required on all vessels with sails up while also being propelled by machinery during daylight under Intl Rules and all vessels over 12m Inland. Pappy
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Old 13-07-2016, 17:44   #50
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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I would honestly say 99.99999% of recreational boaters do not use them.

Also how many ships who make securite calls about leaving a dock and are constrained by draft show a black can? Wager almost none in Miami almost none in Port Everglades.

All that said, from an insurance perspective a black ball is a good hedge. Like showing an anchor light even if you are in an anchorage.


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IIRC......CBD is an international only rule.....
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Old 13-07-2016, 18:57   #51
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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IIRC......CBD is an international only rule.....

Yes legally CBD does not apply inside the COLREGS line.

That said --- had a cruise ship outbound from Miami call CBD on 16 inside the breakwater. He wanted all the channel and could not see sharing it with a 33' sailboat that was almost rubbing paint off the red buoys. I looked up and no can.

There are times to argue and times to yield. I yielded.




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Old 13-07-2016, 19:11   #52
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Yes legally CBD does not apply inside the COLREGS line.

That said --- had a cruise ship outbound from Miami call CBD on 16 inside the breakwater. He wanted all the channel and could not see sharing it with a 33' sailboat that was almost rubbing paint off the red buoys. I looked up and no can.

There are times to argue and times to yield. I yielded.




Sent from my iPhone- please forgive autocorrect errors.
actually he was probably pressing rule 9, Narrow Channel at that point...which is understandable.
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Old 13-07-2016, 19:20   #53
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

I talked to a surveyor a couple of years ago who was called to testify as an expert witness in a lawsuit where some idiot on a jet ski hit a boat that was anchored at Catalina island and then sued the boat owner for not displaying an anchor ball. I don't know the outcome of the trial but I guarantee you I never forgot the conversation.
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Old 13-07-2016, 19:26   #54
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by PappysSailing View Post
The text actually reads " shall exhibit ... a conical shape, apex downward." See Rule 25, paragraph (e) in Rules of the Road. Applies to all sailing vessels under Intl rules and vessels over 12 m Inland with sails up while also being propelled by machinery. By the way, if your vessel is over 12m in length, you are required to have a copy of the USCG Nautical Rules of the Road on board, plus a bell, while underway. Cheers,, Pappy
No need for a bell unless you are 20m plus.
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Old 13-07-2016, 19:36   #55
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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They are quite spendy to buy them, but surely you can make one with a $1 can of black spray paint and something. I use the plastic insides of a cardboard world globe painted black with a short rope with loops strung through it. Like they say, it sure would be good to be able to say you were legal.
Height of extravagance, just buy a packet of cheap black balloons?

Occasionally up here in the deep north of the great south land we run across overzealous officialdom who wander around in dinghies breathalysing people and issuing infringement notices to poor wandering yachties who, having dropped the pick for the day, feel like a few mild ales would be a good idea and might on occasions slightly overdone it. This is more serious than it might appear at first glance because ones auto drivers license and boat driving license are tied together and if you lose one you lose the other.

They justify nailing the skippers of anchored boats on the basis that you might have to hoist anchor and move the vessel whilst alcohol impaired.

When this happened a few years ago there was a fair bit of discussion in letters to the editor and the solution was put forward was to hoist the "not under command" signal before one became legless ie no one was actually in command and even if everyone on the boat was blind drunk there was no one to target.

The answer on the forum of the day was that one cannot just raise the "not under command" as a valid excuse to all get drunk. The answer put forward to that objection was that the vessel was quiet validly designated "not under command" for lack of competent crew.

Day signals definitely have a place in the serious cruisers equipment inventory.
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Old 14-07-2016, 04:25   #56
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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DH, while in theory this could be true, I reckon that in practice it is not. If y ou, as the offending motor sailing vessel simply maneuver as if under sail alone, no entanglement will ensue. The burdened vessel will simply take on a burdened plan that he was not in fact required to do, but it should not cause a problem. After all, if you quickly switched off the motor, he would then be burdened correctly...
This is a surprising and somewhat disturbing attitude. Your assumption is that you are only putting out motor vessels, so it doesn't matter. What about other (actual) sail vessels - if they're upwind or port to your apparent stbd, they'll unnecessarily assume the burden. And what confusion would ensue if you while motoring also manoeuvre (as would be required) - you might both alter towards each other. The point of the cone, as well as the anchor ball is courtesy towards other vessels. It eliminates doubt about another vessel's status and permits predictability in how vessels will manoeuvre to avoid other vessels.
I always use both the motoring cone and anchor ball.
For the penguin, if the genoa is furled, I connect the cone between a spare halyard and a cleat on the foredeck on a strop that places it about 2 m above the deck. If the genoa is out, I tend to hoist it at the windward spreader. I reckon this puts it in the best position to warn sailboats that would consider themselves burdened to me if I was just sailing. It's not ideally located for handling a PDV to PDV crossing situation, but I get around that by manoeuvring early, which then displays the cone to the PDV that was on my stbd.
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Old 14-07-2016, 04:58   #57
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

If I'm motor sailing and I am crossing another vessel who has ROW then I make my course change early and clearly, well before they could see my cone with the naked eye, if it ever came out of the locker.




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Old 14-07-2016, 07:32   #58
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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You bet I use one.

If your boat is anchored without a black shape and hit during daylight your insurance company will dump you like a hot potato. The same applies at night if you have no anchor light. How do you think they get to buy all those big buildings?

It's by saying "No" to claims.

I agree that nobody knows what they mean.
I agree with this, but most important is the way maritime law places blame. I have yet to see a 100% at fault post-mortem and read through hundreds of examples in just the past year.

So, even in a marked anchorage and hit by another boat, you would assume some fault where you are not in compliance.
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Old 14-07-2016, 08:29   #59
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

In a well trafficked area right in front of Victoria harbour I narrowly escaped a collision under sail with a Canadian war ship .Apparently the day shapes obscured in their rigging told of engine tests and a reluctance to change course. In spite of my large red gaff sails and a monitored VHF it was my bad .Day shapes matter
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Old 14-07-2016, 08:42   #60
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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In a well trafficked area right in front of Victoria harbour I narrowly escaped a collision under sail with a Canadian war ship .Apparently the day shapes obscured in their rigging told of engine tests and a reluctance to change course. In spite of my large red gaff sails and a monitored VHF it was my bad .Day shapes matter
When it comes to big ships that can crush me and not even notice they did it, I don't give a damn about COLREGS and day shapes. Unless a a great distance they have changed course to avoid me (easy to see on AIS) I will change my course or speed to avoid them even if I have ROW.

Relying on a big ship seeing you and manoeuvring to avoid you to me is like stepping out on a pedestrian crossing without making sure that the traffic is stopping



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