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Old 12-07-2016, 14:55   #16
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Clipper

Check out Defender the shapes are $15 each. You need the ball and the cone "should" also be purchased.

Hard to see how a DIY is much less.


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Old 12-07-2016, 15:04   #17
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

I have them, never used them and wonder why people bother to use them, especially the anchor ball in a well known, marked on the map, totally obvious anchorage.

I can see the point when you drop anchor in an open area where other boats may be transiting.
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Old 12-07-2016, 15:08   #18
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Whether you've got a motor on or not with sails up determines the order of maneuvering in a crossing situation. You can really tangle up a crossing with a misunderstanding about that.
DH, while in theory this could be true, I reckon that in practice it is not. If y ou, as the offending motor sailing vessel simply maneuver as if under sail alone, no entanglement will ensue. The burdened vessel will simply take on a burdened plan that he was not in fact required to do, but it should not cause a problem. After all, if you quickly switched off the motor, he would then be burdened correctly...

If any difficulty would arise from poor cone display practice, it would be from what you describe doing: sailing with the cone displayed, and yet behaving like a pure sail boat. In this case, the m/v would assume that you will behave as a m/v and plan accordingly. That situation could indeed cause a problem.

But, we routinely do display the anchor ball, even here in Oz where no one knows what it means. When we were T-boned at anchor in Tasmania it would have given us the high moral and legal ground if it had become a legal matter, and that removed one small bit of concern in a difficult situation.

And spendy??? Well, our anchor ball is a childs plastic basketball, sprayed black and suspended by a couple of webbing bands. Cost? maybe 3 AUD.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 12-07-2016, 15:16   #19
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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And spendy??? Well, our anchor ball is a childs plastic basketball, sprayed black and suspended by a couple of webbing bands. Cost? maybe 3 AUD.

Cheers,

Jim
Yep, ours is a styrofoam ball, (found on a beach) sprayed black. I just hang it on a string.
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Old 12-07-2016, 15:27   #20
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
DH, while in theory this could be true, I reckon that in practice it is not. If y ou, as the offending motor sailing vessel simply maneuver as if under sail alone, no entanglement will ensue. The burdened vessel will simply take on a burdened plan that he was not in fact required to do, but it should not cause a problem. After all, if you quickly switched off the motor, he would then be burdened correctly...
Well, except that it was you who were supposed to maneuver first. Also, what if he sees water coming out of your exhaust or smoke, or wake, or is just smart and realizes you can't be making 7 knots of boat speed under sail alone in 6 knots of wind, and stands on based on the (correct) assumption that you are a motor vessel, and you stand on based on pretending to be a vessel under sail? And what if there's an accident -- imaging explaining to the judge that you pretended to be under sail, because you were too lazy to use a cone? Ick, what a mess.

I don't think "just pretend to be under sail" is any kind of solution at all. Use the cone, would be my advice. That's what I do anyway.
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Old 12-07-2016, 15:40   #21
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Well, except that it was you who were supposed to maneuver first. Also, what if he sees water coming out of your exhaust or smoke, or wake, or is just smart and realizes you can't be making 7 knots of boat speed under sail alone in 6 knots of wind, and stands on based on the (correct) assumption that you are a motor vessel, and you stand on based on pretending to be a vessel under sail? And what if there's an accident -- imaging explaining to the judge that you pretended to be under sail, because you were too lazy to use a cone? Ick, what a mess.

I don't think "just pretend to be under sail" is any kind of solution at all. Use the cone, would be my advice. That's what I do anyway.
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Old 12-07-2016, 17:41   #22
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Well, except that it was you who were supposed to maneuver first. Also, what if he sees water coming out of your exhaust or smoke, or wake, or is just smart and realizes you can't be making 7 knots of boat speed under sail alone in 6 knots of wind, and stands on based on the (correct) assumption that you are a motor vessel, and you stand on based on pretending to be a vessel under sail? And what if there's an accident -- imaging explaining to the judge that you pretended to be under sail, because you were too lazy to use a cone? Ick, what a mess.

I don't think "just pretend to be under sail" is any kind of solution at all. Use the cone, would be my advice. That's what I do anyway.
Why would you, acting as a sailing vessel, be the one to maneuver first? Seems that you are then the stand on vessel.

And exactly how is he gonna see your exhaust, or know that it is not a gen set exhaust, or make the determination that because of your speed you just can't be sailing? Those are kinda shaky assumptions IMO.

Look, I'm not advocating cheating, I was questioning your statement that doing so would cause botched crossings. Let's face it: very few yachts do display the cone when motor sailing (at least in the areas we've sailed), and yet we don't see so many collisions as a result of this practice... or even close calls for t hat matter.

And finally, you have often pointed out that merchant vessels start their collision avoidance maneuvers when 10 miles away from you in your yacht. It is pretty clear that they can not see whether or not you are displaying a cone at that distance. In fact, they can't possibly tell by sight or by radar if you are even a sailboat until closer, much less if you are "coned". If you are sending an AIS signal, then your vessel type is known. If class B, it only says "sailing vessel", but not whether you are sailing or motoring, so I'd suspect that the oncoming m/v would need to assume that you were sailing to be on the safe side.

Perhaps El ping or one of the other master mariners would comment on this; I freely admit that I may be wrong about their thought processes.

Oh... one more question: when you are sailing while displaying the cone, do you maneuver as if you are a sailing vessel or a motor vessel? If you were involved in the hypothetical collision you projected above, would you tell the judge that you behaved as a sailing vessel and stood on, despite the cone being displayed?

Again, I agree that in a perfect world, everyone would at all times follow the COLREGS to the letter. In the world that I see, ignoring this particular rule has not shown to be terribly important.

Jim
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Old 12-07-2016, 18:08   #23
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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ignoring this particular rule has not shown to be terribly important.

Jim
I think thats' almost exactly what I said to a traffic court judge 40 years ago.
it didn't work then ... don't think it'll work now
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Old 12-07-2016, 18:21   #24
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

All the tall ships I've sailed on use anchor balls if they drop the hook before sundown. I've done the same on my boat. About a week ago I was anchored near Hilton Head Island. Lots of traffic. Here's a picture of my setup in that locale.

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Old 12-07-2016, 18:42   #25
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

When in Europe, I painted my round radar reflector black. An anchor ball when anchored, simply a radar reflector that happened to be black when underway. Never used a cone, but understood it might be a legal issue.
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Old 12-07-2016, 18:57   #26
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

You must have them in San Diego. Not been harassed anywhere else. However take note of the insurance note .
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Old 12-07-2016, 19:16   #27
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by davisr View Post
All the tall ships I've sailed on use anchor balls if they drop the hook before sundown. I've done the same on my boat. About a week ago I was anchored near Hilton Head Island. Lots of traffic. Here's a picture of my setup in that locale.

Roscoe
That is absolutely the wrong way to rig that type of "ball".

From any direction other than dead abeam, it will NOT appear as a ball.

You need to attach it with those two lines at the top and bottom.
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Old 12-07-2016, 19:20   #28
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
...

I can see the point when you drop anchor in an open area where other boats may be transiting.
Day shape is required even in designated anchorages. In the San Francisco Bay/Delta area, there is only one special anchorage where it isn't required: Richardson Bay, adjacent to Sausalito.
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Old 12-07-2016, 19:20   #29
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

Perhaps El ping or one of the other master mariners would comment on this; I freely admit that I may be wrong about their thought processes.
...

Jim
Back when I had a day job I simply worked on the basis that all 'yotsmen' had the knowledge and skills of hamsters and acted accordingly...

Moving right along.... I am assuming all us sailors have our AIS transceivers configured as class 36 Vessel - sailing.... anybody here slip below and change it to 37 whenever they start their motor?
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Old 12-07-2016, 19:59   #30
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Hey folks thanks for the great input!!! Didn't look very far for buying them. The couple I saw were over a hundred bucks. I'll check out defender and get the cone. I have a round radar reflector we don't use as we have the pill setup. I can just spray paint it black.

Thanks again for the great info😎

Will
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