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Old 19-07-2016, 22:34   #136
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by four winds View Post
Someone posted day shapes were required to be onboard and enforced by citations where they sail. Maybe that was Europe.

So now I'm wondering, in Australia, New Zealand, Europe, Asia, etc: if the majority of sailors actually use them, get cited for non use, have any boat length qualifiers on the requirements, etc.
In Australia, I think most officers of the water police or NSW Maritime, or Transport Queensland, would have absolutely no idea what you were talking about if you mentioned day shapes. Some people do use anchor balls, a small minority. I do sometimes. I've never seen an inverted cone in use.
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Old 19-07-2016, 22:42   #137
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
In Australia, I think most officers of the water police or NSW Maritime, or Transport Queensland, would have absolutely no idea what you were talking about if you mentioned day shapes. Some people do use anchor balls, a small minority. I do sometimes. I've never seen an inverted cone in use.
Completely agree, except that we do routinely use the anchor ball, even here in the Pittwater where no one knows what the hell it is!

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Old 19-07-2016, 22:46   #138
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Completely agree, except that we do routinely use the anchor ball, even here in the Pittwater where no one knows what the hell it is!

Jim
I am always impressed when I see a cruising boat with the anchor ball up. Shows a bit of professionalism. I use them in busy anchorages like sydney and pitwater, or if I am anchored someplace unexpected, with fast boats about. Not so worried down here in a quiet bay.
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Old 19-07-2016, 23:19   #139
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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I am always impressed when I see a cruising boat with the anchor ball up. Shows a bit of professionalism. I use them in busy anchorages like sydney and pitwater, or if I am anchored someplace unexpected, with fast boats about. Not so worried down here in a quiet bay.
Ahh, but Ben... it was in just such a quiet bay (Port Cygnet) where we were T-boned 18 months ago! It never came to the issue, but i was sure glad that I had the ball up then.

You just never know when some jerk will hove over the horizon and prang you!

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Old 19-07-2016, 23:55   #140
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Good point Jim, I should get in the habit of always using it. Glad to hear it worked out OK for you.

I like to use a black cover over a soft mooring ball. Makes a good bouy in case the anchor needs slipping, and doubles as a fender.

I have used a normal fender with a black t shirt lashed over it in the past. Not very round but much better than nothing.
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Old 20-07-2016, 02:23   #141
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
. . .
It's when it becomes apparent to me that the other vessel is not taking avoiding action. It's not hard and fast, black and white.


It's a judgement call.


"The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as


soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not


taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules."


Yes, exactly right. I reckon you know all this as well as I do, and were pulling my chain. I walked right into it
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Old 20-07-2016, 02:55   #142
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

Back to the inverted cone.
In a situation talked about earlier, a large ship may have already taken avoiding action without even having observed the cone, and I have got to admit, with the size of shapes used on a boat less than 20m, it's going to be near impossible to see from the bridge of a ship 3 or 4 miles away.

But these shapes are not just for indicating status being a small sail boat and a large ship, they are, in more likely, for indicating status between small sail boats and small power boats.

There are many area's crowded with small craft, some under sail, some motoring, and some doing both.

To me, it's a courtesy to indicate your status to another vessel, and avoid them having to take avoiding action, when that avoiding action should have been taken by the other vessel. Remember, in such a scenario, avoiding action between small boats is usually taken at relatively short distance.

My main gripe is where to hang the cone, if you are motor sailing with just the main, it's easy to rig it somewhere in the fore triangle, but if you have the foresail in use, where then, it can only really be used on one side of the boat and only seen from that side.
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Old 23-07-2016, 16:50   #143
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
Question to the people here who work on the bridge of large commercial vessels. If mid ocean you spot a small sailing boat 5nm ahead that you will cross with


what do you do if

1) they have their sails up?
2) they do not have sails up and are making way and you are the stand on vessel?
3) their sails are up, but half a mile from them you finally spot a cone
because they are motor sailing?
As others have said for (1) and (2) it's give way and stand on with caution respectively. (3) is not so cut and dried. Truly mid-ocean it would have been picked up on radar and a small course adjustment would have made it a moot point without knowing that it was a sailing vessel. If the destination is 2 thousand miles away, veering 2 miles off-track has no impact. But in the more likely occurrence of meeting coastally, where I might be heading for a fairway entrance or a pilot boarding station, I might not be so quick to go miles out of my way. Not all commercial ships are supertankers, so you should dispel the notion that they all take miles to turn. I won't put a number on how far away a shape may be seen - I'm sure it's not very far by the naked eye, but many ships have larger fixed binoculars available to the watch officer; and becoming more common, ships are fitted with powerful, stabilized video camera systems, that greatly extend the range of visibility. More importantly, the watch officer might be a sailor as well. Why is that important? you ask...
I don't know about you, but I only motor-sail for two reasons - there's no wind or the wrong wind and I have to be somewhere on-time, or I'm just plain motoring but have a steadying sail up (main usually). I guess there is the possibility that you are able to make decent sailing speed just sailing but want the extra knot, so you have the engine running as well. And equally possible but less likely, you are only able to eke out a couple knots with the wind, but have the motor on maintaining the same anemic speed; in either of those two cases, you'll fool everyone into believing you're just sailing. But in most other cases, it will be fairly apparent to any experienced sailor, that you are motoring whether or not he can hear your engine chugging or see your exhaust. The guy with his sails sheeted into the centreline, making 6 knots into a 5-knot wind is kind of obvious. And it's just as, or even more obvious on the bridge of a large ship, to anyone who understands sailing. They have gyro-stabilized ARPA systems that give them a precise assessment of your course and speed, which can easily be compared to the true wind, from the other side of the horizon. You ain't fooling anybody. At this point pretending to be a sailboat, when the actual stand-on vessel knows that you can't possibly be just sailing, is only going to stand you into danger.

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This is just stupid!

If you are sailing and are going to cross with a vessel that you believe is sailing and would have right of way, wouldn't you plan to manoeuvre your vessel to avoid a collision in such a way that you don't go into irons?

If it turns out they are motor sailing, how will you end up in irons?

Perhaps you might end up in irons because you tried to cross in front of them and misjudged their speed? That would indicate poor seamanship.

The lack of a day shape cone on a motor sailing vessel is nothing more than an inconvenience to sailors.

Use common sense and COLREGS together and everything will be fine.
If you don't understand something, it's better to seek clarification, rather than being insulting. Both you and Jim apparently don't appreciate the fact that the faster vessel does not need to make as great a manoeuvre as the slower vessel would to have the same effect. Let's use an example.

You and Jim are both out sailing - the wind is very light and you're both making about 2 knots. You are approaching as to have risk of collision. Jim is on stbd and you are port-tack. You're 2 miles away from each other and you want to make a course alteration that makes it obvious to Jim that you are taking action as is required and gives you a reasonable passing distance; you decide you want to avoid Jim by 500 yards. (this is not a debate about whether 500 yards is appropriate, it's just an example for this illustration.) He's going 2 kts, you're going 2 kts - that's a closing speed of 4 kts, so given the 2 mile separation, you'll be at CPA in 30 mins, at a point that is 1 mile ahead of you. In order to give a 500 yard CPA, you'll have to alter course by 15º (left or right, it doesn't matter.)
Imagine instead that Jim is motoring at 8 kts, while you are sailing at 2 kts, still 2 miles apart. The closing speed is now 10 kts , so CPA will occur in 12 mins, now just 800 yards ahead of you. To get that 500 yard separation, you will now need to alter about 40º to achieve that, which you must agree is a much more significant turn than the previously calculated 15º turn.
Now if Jim, since he is motoring decided to do the manoeuvring, and he also wanted to miss you by 500 yards, given the same parameters, he will meet you 3200 yards away from where he started, so he only has to alter 9º to do so.

Obviously there are endless combinations to these sorts of situations, that may not make it necessary for a sailboat to alter beyond its capability to maintain headway, but for a large heavy cruising sailboat, in light airs, and particularly with any seaway, it's going to be more difficult to make a comparatively large (as demonstrated above) course alteration.

Does that make my point clearer?
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Old 23-07-2016, 17:04   #144
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

I assume in the above example, the appropriate sound signals are used for the course changes?
Just wondering if those using the anchor ball are also sounding the appropriate sound signals all night, when visibility is restricted?
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Old 24-07-2016, 04:42   #145
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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I assume in the above example, the appropriate sound signals are used for the course changes?
Just wondering if those using the anchor ball are also sounding the appropriate sound signals all night, when visibility is restricted?
Night time in the absence of fog is not "restricted visibility".

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Old 24-07-2016, 05:00   #146
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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Night time in the absence of fog is not "restricted visibility".

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I think that was meant to mean when it is dark *and* foggy.... punctuation is a bitch..innit

Who makes sound signals in daylight in restricted viz?

Precious few I'll wager.....
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Old 24-07-2016, 06:15   #147
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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I think that was meant to mean when it is dark *and* foggy.... punctuation is a bitch..innit

Who makes sound signals in daylight in restricted viz?

Precious few I'll wager.....
I certainly make sound signals in thick fog, day or night, in crowded inshore waters (not out to sea). It's required, and it's sensible.

I don't do it out to sea because it's pointless - you won't encounter a vessel which has neither radar nor AIS. But inshore, there are lots of small vessels you might not catch on radar, who will want to know you're out there making way.

My Icom VHF has an automatic fog horn function which makes this easy.

Via the bullhorn hailer speaker on the mast.
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Old 24-07-2016, 08:18   #148
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

I not only sound them, I log the sounding of them...off and on. Same for nav lights and even anchor light in some anchorages.

Unfortunately, more for legal, insurance reasons than the Colregs.
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Old 24-07-2016, 08:37   #149
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

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As others have said for (1) and (2) it's give way and stand on with caution respectively. (3) is not so cut and dried. Truly mid-ocean it would have been picked up on radar and a small course adjustment would have made it a moot point without knowing that it was a sailing vessel. If the destination is 2 thousand miles away, veering 2 miles off-track has no impact. But in the more likely occurrence of meeting coastally, where I might be heading for a fairway entrance or a pilot boarding station, I might not be so quick to go miles out of my way. Not all commercial ships are supertankers, so you should dispel the notion that they all take miles to turn. I won't put a number on how far away a shape may be seen - I'm sure it's not very far by the naked eye, but many ships have larger fixed binoculars available to the watch officer; and becoming more common, ships are fitted with powerful, stabilized video camera systems, that greatly extend the range of visibility. More importantly, the watch officer might be a sailor as well. Why is that important? you ask...
I don't know about you, but I only motor-sail for two reasons - there's no wind or the wrong wind and I have to be somewhere on-time, or I'm just plain motoring but have a steadying sail up (main usually). I guess there is the possibility that you are able to make decent sailing speed just sailing but want the extra knot, so you have the engine running as well. And equally possible but less likely, you are only able to eke out a couple knots with the wind, but have the motor on maintaining the same anemic speed; in either of those two cases, you'll fool everyone into believing you're just sailing. But in most other cases, it will be fairly apparent to any experienced sailor, that you are motoring whether or not he can hear your engine chugging or see your exhaust. The guy with his sails sheeted into the centreline, making 6 knots into a 5-knot wind is kind of obvious. And it's just as, or even more obvious on the bridge of a large ship, to anyone who understands sailing. They have gyro-stabilized ARPA systems that give them a precise assessment of your course and speed, which can easily be compared to the true wind, from the other side of the horizon. You ain't fooling anybody. At this point pretending to be a sailboat, when the actual stand-on vessel knows that you can't possibly be just sailing, is only going to stand you into danger.
I don't try to pretend I'm sailing if I'm actually motor sailing. To avoid confusion about who is the stand on vessel, I will make my collision avoidance manoeuvre early. If I'm sailing and I see a commercial vessel, whether it's a super tanker or a coastal freighter, if they have not made any avoidance manoeuvre
or the CPA is not a distance to my liking, then I will change course. With AIS this is made easy although once I changed course to increase the CPA with a small ferry and when he saw my manoeuvre, he decreased the CPA to the earlier distance. I


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If you don't understand something, it's better to seek clarification, rather than being insulting. Both you and Jim apparently don't appreciate the fact that the faster vessel does not need to make as great a manoeuvre as the slower vessel would to have the same effect. Let's use an example.

You and Jim are both out sailing - the wind is very light and you're both making about 2 knots. You are approaching as to have risk of collision. Jim is on stbd and you are port-tack. You're 2 miles away from each other and you want to make a course alteration that makes it obvious to Jim that you are taking action as is required and gives you a reasonable passing distance; you decide you want to avoid Jim by 500 yards. (this is not a debate about whether 500 yards is appropriate, it's just an example for this illustration.) He's going 2 kts, you're going 2 kts - that's a closing speed of 4 kts, so given the 2 mile separation, you'll be at CPA in 30 mins, at a point that is 1 mile ahead of you. In order to give a 500 yard CPA, you'll have to alter course by 15º (left or right, it doesn't matter.)
Imagine instead that Jim is motoring at 8 kts, while you are sailing at 2 kts, still 2 miles apart. The closing speed is now 10 kts , so CPA will occur in 12 mins, now just 800 yards ahead of you. To get that 500 yard separation, you will now need to alter about 40º to achieve that, which you must agree is a much more significant turn than the previously calculated 15º turn.
Now if Jim, since he is motoring decided to do the manoeuvring, and he also wanted to miss you by 500 yards, given the same parameters, he will meet you 3200 yards away from where he started, so he only has to alter 9º to do so.

Obviously there are endless combinations to these sorts of situations, that may not make it necessary for a sailboat to alter beyond its capability to maintain headway, but for a large heavy cruising sailboat, in light airs, and particularly with any seaway, it's going to be more difficult to make a comparatively large (as demonstrated above) course alteration.

Does that make my point clearer?
If I was crossing with Jim and I'm on a port tack and he's starboard, I'd be crossing just behind his stern and say hi. (I'd be on the leeward helm where I have a good view of him before we cross so It's clear I'm not snoozing on AP)

In your scenario, for 8 + 2 knots to equal 10 knots closing speed, you must be going head to head and if it's another sailboat, why make such an extreme course change and have such a large CPA. Sounds like a panic manoeuvre of someone who is not on watch and seen another yacht at the "last minute"

I'm not buying your ending up in irons

500yards to me is a comfortable distance for a ship, but for another sailing boat is total overkill unless you spotted them and made the course correction many miles out so that the course correction is minor.
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Old 24-07-2016, 09:43   #150
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Re: Do use Day Shapes

What part of (this is not a debate about whether 500 yards is appropriate, it's just an example for this illustration) was unclear to you? I just picked an arbitrary figure to illustrate that a slow moving boat, as one under sail, needs to make a larger course alteration, than the faster boat would, to have the same effect. The example had you altering at a distance of 2 miles - that is not a "last minute panic manoeuvre."
You apparently didn't understand the context of my original point, and seem reluctant to actually read and understand further explanation. Believe what you will. I'm not wasting any more time on this.
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