Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by smj

Seems obvious to me that the previous two posters have little to no experience with multis.


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Seems obvious to me you have little to no experience with the North Pacific, where I sail. Would you take a big power boat that can do twenty knots out in 15-20 ft waves and run it at top speed? That would be nuts, you have to slow down dramatically in those conditions. Same is true on any other kind of boat. Try doing 15 knots in your cat in those conditions for long, and something will break. You, or the boat. It's the reason the most common cat I see in the boatyard around here is the Trawler Cat.

[deckofficer]

What's a little pounding when you have such a speed range? Previous owner went on to a Chris White Atlantic 57. I don't know who owns it now but maybe it will be available in about 5 years.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

What's a little pounding when you have such a speed range? Previous owner went on to a Chris White Atlantic 57. I don't know who owns it now but maybe it will be available in about 5 years.

That pic is a great example of what I'm talking about. Small wave train, and that tri is just about airborne! The pounding must be horrendous. I can't imagine taking that ride for more than a day...

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by minaret

That pic is a great example of what I'm talking about. Small wave train, and that tri is just about airborne! The pounding must be horrendous. I can't imagine taking that ride for more than a day...

And you are correct, less than a day. The Farallones race, easy 1st to finish. But there would be a big difference in motion if the speed was eased to 15 kt instead of 25 kt wouldn't you think?

The owner of a sister ship, S/V Flying Fish uses his for cruising, knocking out 380 nm runs on good days in cruising trim.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

Not an assumption since it was confirmed by other poster that expressed that opinion based on his experience:


I was talking about the conditions that he experienced, med typical conditions with strong winds and upwind sailing, not Ocean Pacific conditions. The med with wind creates some nasty short period steep waves that are very uncomfortable upwind.

I have heard and read other sailors talking about the uncomfortable motion of a multihull upwind in steep waves and also about the noise and jerky motion (when sailing fast). James Baldwin explains well what I mean:

"Over the years I've been fortunate to have sailed a variety of boats, from cruising the coast of China on a three-masted junk, to spending two circumnavigations aboard Atom, my 28-foot Pearson Triton.... I were hired to help sail a 44-foot Dean Catamaran, Dawn Dancer, on a 2,050-mile passage from Cabedelo, Brazil, to Trinidad in the West Indies. ....Despite the thrill of sailing fast and level, we soon became acquainted with the multihull's dirty little secret—the incredible pounding of waves on the bridge deck's flat underside. The slamming was so severe that I could not sleep at all the first two days. Below decks, the shockwaves felt like we were being dropped on concrete. I kept looking through the hatch to see if the mast had fallen. Mike comforted us neophytes by saying: "Yes, she always pounds, sometimes much worse than now....I kept waking every few minutes whenever a particularly hard impact nearly lifted me off my bunk."

As I said, it depends on the design. Many South African cat's are well known for having very low bridgedeck clearance. They pound. But most cat's have more clearance, some have much more clearance - 2 or 3 times as much.

It's pretty rare for us to have any real wave contact with our bridgedeck, at least in anything less than 30 knots wind. And the Med isn't the only place that gets short steep waves. Plenty of locations on the Australian East coast can see 3-4 knots of tide against the wind.

But hey, you've read stuff, I've only sailed tens of thousands of miles in both types, WTF would I know.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by minaret

Seems obvious to me you have little to no experience with the North Pacific, where I sail. Would you take a big power boat that can do twenty knots out in 15-20 ft waves and run it at top speed? That would be nuts, you have to slow down dramatically in those conditions. Same is true on any other kind of boat. Try doing 15 knots in your cat in those conditions for long, and something will break. You, or the boat. It's the reason the most common cat I see in the boatyard around here is the Trawler Cat.

Depends on the wind direction. Downwind sailing at 15 knots is no problem at all. Your boat speed is pretty similar to the waves. Upwind, well yeah, who is going to sail upwind at 15 knots? Who CAN?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by tomfl

When I hear someone make a comment like "I've never sailed on a cat, I wouldn't like the motion." I tend to take them at their word.

One thing I have noticed is that my Seawind (not saying it is what I would pick as an upwind blue water boat) does pound/slam (or what ever you want to call it) when going up wind in some conditions. But if I trim the sails a little and change the course maybe five degrees the pounding goes away. It does increase the time to the destination but a more comfortable motion is worth it to me.

When I hear stories about folks pounding into the teeth of the wind for days I wonder why they they simply don't change course a little and be more comfortable. If I sailed my cat that way I would not like the motion either.

Interesting. For us it's sometimes actually more comfortable to pinch up a bit and go slower. Sometimes not. If we bear away even a couple of degrees the speed can really run away.

[markpierce]

Somehow, not leaning while using a strong wind toward windward, isn't "sailing."

Reminiscing 1960s racing on The Bay:

[minaret]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Depends on the wind direction. Downwind sailing at 15 knots is no problem at all. Your boat speed is pretty similar to the waves. Upwind, well yeah, who is going to sail upwind at 15 knots? Who CAN?

What about on any point but DDW? What about when waves and wind aren't coming from the same direction? Or a cross sea when waves are coming from more than one direction? Face it, cats aren't at their best in anything other than relatively flat water. I think this also contributes to the ARC numbers. In bad weather, everyone is reduced to about the same speed. In light airs and calm water, cats rule. In dead air, the monos can motor much more than the multis due to bigger tanks. The result is everyone gets there about the same time. The mono sailor just gets there with an extra hundred G's or two in his pocket...

[downunder]

Originally Posted by steve.garlick

Thought I'd offer a different point of view. After a history of being dedicated multihullers (my wife and I raced a Nacra 5.8, sailed several Farrier tri's ), we bought a 44' Chamberlain cat as our first cruising boat. It was a disaster on many levels. It was too big for my wife and I to easily handle, it cost a fortune to haul and dock fees were high. It required way too much maintenance, and while being fast, it was unenjoyable to sail. It felt like sailing a truck, with no feel of 'being in the groove'. We sold it after 6 months, realising we'd bought the wrong boat for us.

We also realised that the smallest boat you can live aboard is the best for many reasons (we are retiree's on a limited budget). We have now been living in the Med for 2 years on a 40' mono. We love the boat, it is a cruising classic (A Bowman 40). It has impeccable sea-worthiness and is a delight to sail. We can get it into and out of the small harbours, ports and anchorages here. We've sailed in horrible conditions (50 knot meltemi winds with short 4m chop) and the boat has handled it impeccably.

We've also done a delivery in a Lagoon 40'. I would NEVER want to go back to a cat like that. The motion in a reasonable MEd chop was horrible, it wallowed and pounded like a pig. The interior fit out was cheap and nasty.

I know there are some great cat's being built now, but I have adapted completely to mono's. The boat has a small footprint, I feel totally safe with the seaworthiness of the boat, and feel comfortable in high winds at anchor and port.

Each to his own, but the OP was asking about people who 'went back'. We did, and we're happy we did.

Steve
S/V Pavlov

Be interested in further comments by steve.garlick on his Chamberlain 44.

I suspect as he said it was simply too large and expensive for him at his time of ownership and if built of timber can understand also the potential maint by comparison with similar vessels built out of foam composites.

A Chamberlain 46 has the record for a solo round Australia circumnavigation. BIG WAVE RIDER | Bruce Arms

Quite a lot of cat sailors don't mind the feeling of sailing like a truck, with no feel of 'being in the groove' if it means you are sailing on the level. Did you sail your Chamberlain in the med or Pacific? I imagine there were some differences between that vessel and a Lagoon.

I can understand your comments of a L400 in the Med although despite the noise and tank like feel they can handle it and I did get one up to 20knots in the Whitsundays in some heavy weather. My rather inexperienced lady friend was happy and that often the test.

Tomfl I have found the little Seawind 1000 an very seaworthy vessel that I would not hesitate to take offshore.

Cheers

[downunder]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Somehow, not leaning while using a strong wind toward windward, isn't "sailing."

Reminiscing 1960s racing on The Bay:

Then again Mark I note from your posts you don't get too far offshore thesedays.

Cheers

[steve.garlick]

Okay, further comments on the Chamberlin 44.

First though, it always puzzles me why people think there is a 'right answer' to what type of boat. It is such an individual thing, and every boat is a massive compromise. I find it hard to understand the passion... merging into vitriol that some bring to this discussion.

We'd been sailing trimarans (28' F850 and Trailer Tri) and thought of a cruising trimaran as our first option when considering cruising boats. I still have a passion for tri's and think that Farriers are just the bee's knee's for a coastal cruiser, fast day boat. We looked at a fantastic 40' trimaran, but when my wife saw a friends Hitch-hiker, she said 'You're not having a trimaran, I want the space of a cat'.

We were coastal sailors at this point, having cruised the Whitsundays and the coast off NSW. We had very limited experience of long-term live-aboard. We bought the Chamberlain for its room. It was incredibly spacious, with 3 queen size berth's in separate cabins, a fourth cabin with twin bunks, a huge galley with 2 fridges, washing machine, etc etc. We were seduced by the space, as are a lot of cat owners. If you want a condomaran, I can think of nothing that gives you the amount of living space that a cat does.

Some lessons are more expensive than others, as was our experience with this cat. It was homebuilt strip cedar and glassed. There was some rot in the cedar (not the primary hull, but internal tanks and some deck fittings). The engines were difficult to access, the rig was large and difficult to manage, and she was just a big boat with big windage and a handful to dock with my experience at that time.

We sold that boat just after the financial crash, and lost a motza. But we learnt a lot of valuable lessons. One is just how much cash and continual maintenance that a boat takes. We learned that we wanted a simple and smaller boat, with an easily handled rig. My wife and I are in our late 50's and getting older by the minute, and we have to plan for that. We also realised that Australia is not the best place to start a cruise, and we decided to buy our boat in the Mediterranean.

We choose a very classic boat, a Bowman 40. This boat, designed by Chuck Paine, arguably represents a pinnacle in British boat building. I gain a lot of pleasure from looking after a classic boat, that sails superbly and is built incredibly strong. There are so many intangible factors to boat ownership that are ignored by lots of these facile arguments about whether cats are better than mono's. When you spend so much time maintaining a boat, you've just got to love it. The Bowman gives me that feeling, unlike any other production boat.

Now, after 2 years in the Med, we have a much better idea about living full-time on a boat. I still believe that small is beautiful, as we struggle with the ever increasing marina fee's. We've learned to be much more independent, with a new generator and solar panels, grey water tanks etc etc. We've also learned that being able to tuck into tiny anchorages and being secure on the hook are critical in being able to avoid excessive marina charges. We've hauled out in primitive boat yards (because of the expense in marina's) with primitive lifting gear. Our boat has suited us well for that purpose and I don't lust after a cat (and I have experience on well built cats). I do lust after a pilot house, and perhaps more storage room, but aren't willing to pay the downside for those things.

I vote for 'Each to his own' and 'Viva la difference'.

Steve

[weavis]

Originally Posted by downunder

Be interested in further comments by steve.garlick on his Chamberlain 44.

I suspect as he said it was simply too large and expensive for him at his time of ownership and if built of timber can understand also the potential maint by comparison with similar vessels built out of foam composites.

A Chamberlain 46 has the record for a solo round Australia circumnavigation. BIG WAVE RIDER | Bruce Arms

Quite a lot of cat sailors don't mind the feeling of sailing like a truck, with no feel of 'being in the groove' if it means you are sailing on the level. Did you sail your Chamberlain in the med or Pacific? I imagine there were some differences between that vessel and a Lagoon.

I can understand your comments of a L400 in the Med although despite the noise and tank like feel they can handle it and I did get one up to 20knots in the Whitsundays in some heavy weather. My rather inexperienced lady friend was happy and that often the test.

Tomfl I have found the little Seawind 1000 an very seaworthy vessel that I would not hesitate to take offshore.

Cheers

I for one, am totally sold on Cats. Having a background in Motor vessels and sub 28 foot sailboats, I fell totally in love with the whole Catamaran thing after fishing off a 36 foot pontoon boat in Florida.

A few weeks later, I took a ride on a 36 foot Catamaran and that was me over to the dark side forever. Had I stayed in Florida, I was ready to buy a Catamaran. It would do everything I wanted in terms of living on, weather handling, small draft (useful for Florida West coast), great fishing deck, easy sail handling, Bahamas was calling............

now having relocated to the UK and working in and out of Spain and Mallorca, It seems that I could justify doing it in the Med

I like stability at anchor. I have no problem with upwind motor sailing if necessary. I dont really mind hull slamming once I knew it was par for the course in a rising sea with some low deck clearances......... I love the width..... I like knowing the boat is inheritently seaworthy. I like not leaning.

This doesnt take away any of the fun of a monohull. Its just a preference.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by downunder

Then again Mark I note from your posts you don't get too far offshore thesedays.

Cheers

Some people claim I never leave my zip code.

Last week I passed through Panama Canal on a 5300-mile voyage.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by downunder

I can understand your comments of a L400 in the Med although despite the noise and tank like feel they can handle it and I did get one up to 20knots in the Whitsundays in some heavy weather. My rather inexperienced lady friend was happy and that often the test.
Cheers

On Charter holiday...???