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Old 14-05-2014, 08:18   #661
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Re: Do multihullers ever go back?

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Hi Tom
If a Catamaran were not avaialble to you in your cruising area:
  • Would you give up sailing?
  • Would you select a Monohull?
  • assuming yes: what type and size of Monohull?


The first thing I would do is use a dictionary to find out how available.

I sailed on my Dad's H28, his Abaco schooner, and his Privateer. Of those three I probably would get something like the Privateer. After I got my law degree my Dad let me take the boat from Marathon to the Dry Tortugas to Cay Sal, and back to Marathon.

The thing is before I got the Seawind I had been looking at Fboats and came very close to getting a C31. Knowing what I know now (after meeting a guy with an F39 and being on that boat) I would probably look for some type of Fboat or a Chris White trimaran in the 40-45 foot length.

The thing is the Seawind is very easy to single hand. The twin screws make things like docking and picking up a ball vary easy, much easier than a monohull with a single screw. It is also much more comfortable at anchor than any other boat I have been on, cats excepted.
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Old 14-05-2014, 08:39   #662
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Re: Do multihullers ever go back?

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Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
The first thing I would do is use a dictionary to find out how available.



The thing is the Seawind is very easy to single hand. The twin screws make things like docking and picking up a ball vary easy, much easier than a monohull with a single screw. It is also much more comfortable at anchor than any other boat I have been on, cats excepted.
I claim using a tablet as the issue.....
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Old 14-05-2014, 09:22   #663
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Re: Do multihullers ever go back?

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This beats any cat.
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Old 14-05-2014, 09:50   #664
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

ditto on the tri's.

I notice that when people are discussing the dreaded and fatal bridgedeck slam that dooms all cats to an early resale to the unsuspecting newbie, they don't usually point out the contribution of the beam to length ratio. Let's face it, if the cat's hulls were something like ten feet apart, they'd be riding over the same wave and no slam. And under way the beam and shape of the hulls definitely has an effect as the wakes between the hulls comes into play.

We sailed the BVI during Christmas Winds in a chartered Leopard 42. This old Catalac doesn't contact the wave tops in chop nearly as much as the Robertson&Caine, despite a large difference in bridgedeck clearances. The Leopard had five feet wider beam for the same length. 22 (I think) vs 17.
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Old 14-05-2014, 11:19   #665
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
ditto on the tri's.

I notice that when people are discussing the dreaded and fatal bridgedeck slam that dooms all cats to an early resale to the unsuspecting newbie, they don't usually point out the contribution of the beam to length ratio. Let's face it, if the cat's hulls were something like ten feet apart, they'd be riding over the same wave and no slam. And under way the beam and shape of the hulls definitely has an effect as the wakes between the hulls comes into play.

We sailed the BVI during Christmas Winds in a chartered Leopard 42. This old Catalac doesn't contact the wave tops in chop nearly as much as the Robertson&Caine, despite a large difference in bridgedeck clearances. The Leopard had five feet wider beam for the same length. 22 (I think) vs 17.
My first thought was have you ever seen an Island Packet cat. They are some sorta three bow two stern design. Anyone ever been on one of them and know how they pound/slam/slap/any other name you care to add.

But what bothers me most about this, and several other posts is that bridge deck clearance differences are a consideration. Not sure on this but there is probably about a two foot difference between the clearances on most of the cats any of us have experience with.

Often times the weather on CH2 (or what ever station you listen to) describes the sea conditions as 2-4 feet or even 8-12 feet. A two foot difference in bridge deck clearance is trivial compared to the normal difference between wave size.
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Old 14-05-2014, 12:35   #666
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Yep, that is why they hold and have held RTW records for many many years, cause they are slow.
...
Americas's cup boats are cats aren't they? When I say slower (and not slow) I didn't mean in ocean conditions were extra seaworthiness and a a slightly easier boat can make them faster, I mean in absolute terms in flat water.
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Old 28-05-2014, 06:50   #667
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Whew! I read about half of this huge thread. I'll interrupt this discussion to go back to the topic.

To answer the OP's question, does it count if you were a "multi-huller" only in your own mind?

I've been looking at a lot of boats the last two years and plan to buy a new one soon when I retire. For a long time I was firmly convinced that a multi-hull was the way to go, and that's all I would charter. But now I'm starting to actually lean toward monohulls instead, and no, it's not just because of price. Actually, with a brand-new boat, the price difference isn't that huge. My monohull experience is admittedly very limited, but these are the factors that are starting to convince me to favor monohulls:
  1. Simply better looking.
  2. Better weight carrying capacity, and normally much more compartments for storage.
  3. Newer, beamier boats with hull chines sail very flat. Not as flat as a multi-hull, but they still don't heel nearly as much as the monohulls of old. Some examples are the Beneteau Oceanis series, the Jeanneau Sun Odysseys, and the newer Dufours. So while stability is important to me, the difference is not as huge as I originally estimated.
  4. Monohulls have better accomodations overall, IMO (as long as your boat is large enough to avoid those pointy V-berth bunks!)
  5. Sailing performance is about the same for blue water cruising, because the weight of the extra supplies and gear you need to take aboard hurts catamaran performance more than a monohull.
  6. Much better visibility from the cockpit.
  7. With bowthrusters, maneuverability is superior to cats.
  8. Cheaper marina fees overall.

Everything is relative, of course. I could still go either way, depending on the best deal I can find.

Out of all the boats I've considered, the Neel 45, of all things, seems to have to best of both worlds, all the advantages of a mono and multihull (except for visibility and marina fees, because it's wide as hell). It is beautiful, although certainly not at first glance. I would buy one in a heartbeat, except a new one goes for about $550K, a little out of my price range, and it hasn't been around long enough for very many used ones on the market.
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Old 28-05-2014, 08:36   #668
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by Rohan View Post
SNIP

Actually, with a brand-new boat, the price difference isn't that huge.

SNIP
  1. Newer, beamier boats with hull chines sail very flat. Not as flat as a multi-hull, but they still don't heel nearly as much as the monohulls of old. Some examples are the Beneteau Oceanis series, the Jeanneau Sun Odysseys, and the newer Dufours. So while stability is important to me, the difference is not as huge as I originally estimated.
SNIP

Out of all the boats I've considered, the Neel 45, of all things, seems to have to best of both worlds, all the advantages of a mono and multihull (except for visibility and marina fees, because it's wide as hell). It is beautiful, although certainly not at first glance. I would buy one in a heartbeat, except a new one goes for about $550K, a little out of my price range, and it hasn't been around long enough for very many used ones on the market.
Once you get in the $US500,000 new boat range a lot of folks are priced out of the market. I have looked at some of the new monohulls and seen posts in threads comparing them to multihulls. Nothing against a Neel, but the monohulls you listed may be better compared to cats that a little more speed oriented than the Neel; say a TAG or Outermer in terms of performance.

In fact one thing I see a lot is folks trying to compare a monohull designed for performance cruising to a multihull designed for the charter market. I also see a lot of folks discussing price points well above a realistic price point for them.

I sailed several of my Dad's monohulls for over twenty years. Then I started crewing on cats and sailing on tris. It was clear for the type of sailing I was going to do a multihull was the right choice. But I realistic in the fact that I will never round the great capes or even sail in the Southern Ocean. If I was going places like that I would choose a steel monohull. But for what I do a cat is a better choice.
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Old 28-05-2014, 08:47   #669
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

I think most of us here on multi's or getting a multi have experience on Monohulls. And Some a LOT of experience in a variety.
I have a lot of experience in smaller monos and 40 plus foot offshore motor fishing boats. Tomfl has a lot of experience in racing boats.

For what I want now, I would like a Catamaran.
HOWEVER...... I would not turn down this if I could afford it....AND I would be very happy. I dont see it as going back..... I see it as sailing what I want to sail...

Only it would have to be this boat or Im sticking to my Cat...

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Old 28-05-2014, 08:59   #670
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohan View Post
Whew! I read about half of this huge thread. I'll interrupt this discussion to go back to the topic.

To answer the OP's question, does it count if you were a "multi-huller" only in your own mind?

I've been looking at a lot of boats the last two years and plan to buy a new one soon when I retire. For a long time I was firmly convinced that a multi-hull was the way to go, and that's all I would charter. But now I'm starting to actually lean toward monohulls instead, and no, it's not just because of price. Actually, with a brand-new boat, the price difference isn't that huge. My monohull experience is admittedly very limited, but these are the factors that are starting to convince me to favor monohulls:
  1. Simply better looking.
  2. Better weight carrying capacity, and normally much more compartments for storage.
  3. Newer, beamier boats with hull chines sail very flat. Not as flat as a multi-hull, but they still don't heel nearly as much as the monohulls of old. Some examples are the Beneteau Oceanis series, the Jeanneau Sun Odysseys, and the newer Dufours. So while stability is important to me, the difference is not as huge as I originally estimated.
  4. Monohulls have better accomodations overall, IMO (as long as your boat is large enough to avoid those pointy V-berth bunks!)
  5. Sailing performance is about the same for blue water cruising, because the weight of the extra supplies and gear you need to take aboard hurts catamaran performance more than a monohull.
  6. Much better visibility from the cockpit.
  7. With bowthrusters, maneuverability is superior to cats.
  8. Cheaper marina fees overall.

Everything is relative, of course. I could still go either way, depending on the best deal I can find.

Out of all the boats I've considered, the Neel 45, of all things, seems to have to best of both worlds, all the advantages of a mono and multihull (except for visibility and marina fees, because it's wide as hell). It is beautiful, although certainly not at first glance. I would buy one in a heartbeat, except a new one goes for about $550K, a little out of my price range, and it hasn't been around long enough for very many used ones on the market.
It's obvious you've been talking to a monohull salesman!!

One could argue each of your points, but that's not fruitful.

The bottom line is to buy the boat YOU want, not something someone else wants.

If you wanted to drive across the US, from New York City to Los Angeles, you could use anything from a moped to a class A motorhome. You chose your vehicle/vessel based on your own needs/desires.

Buy/use what you want.
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Old 28-05-2014, 09:07   #671
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

I have a cat because I like having women aboard.

All the women I know hate leaners.

Most cruisers as they get older would rather go with a small trawler than go back to a leaner.
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Old 28-05-2014, 09:42   #672
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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SNIP


Only it would have to be this boat or Im sticking to my Cat...

I am sure there are plenty of boats I would trade my boat for and some of them are monohulls. Problem is I am not sure the owners of those boats would agree to the trade.

And a big reason those owners would not want to trade is money.

But I am not so sure the Haber is one I would trade for. For starters my cat has two 9.9 long shaft Yamaha outboards. Certainly not as powerful as the motor on the Haber but a lot cheaper to maintain and I like always having a spare.

I am sure my cat is faster. My cat also has the ability to lower the mast kinda like the Haber does. My cat has nice davits that quickly and safely story a tender, something I don't see on the Haber. My cat has a lot better air circulation both in the hulls and salon. Probably lots of other advantages for my cat as well.

Not to say the Haber does not have an upside. I like the tiller/rudder, very strong and safer in heavy seas. In fact the boat looks like a good heavy weather I would feel safer in in the Southern Ocean. It is just that I will not be sailing in the Southern Ocean.

I pick my boat based on how I will use it, not on some unlikely trip I will never take.
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Old 28-05-2014, 09:53   #673
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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I am sure there are plenty of boats I would trade my boat for and some of them are monohulls. Problem is I am not sure the owners of those boats would agree to the trade.

And a big reason those owners would not want to trade is money.

But I am not so sure the Haber is one I would trade for. For starters my cat has two 9.9 long shaft Yamaha outboards. Certainly not as powerful as the motor on the Haber but a lot cheaper to maintain and I like always having a spare.

I am sure my cat is faster. My cat also has the ability to lower the mast kinda like the Haber does. My cat has nice davits that quickly and safely story a tender, something I don't see on the Haber. My cat has a lot better air circulation both in the hulls and salon. Probably lots of other advantages for my cat as well.

Not to say the Haber does not have an upside. I like the tiller/rudder, very strong and safer in heavy seas. In fact the boat looks like a good heavy weather I would feel safer in in the Southern Ocean. It is just that I will not be sailing in the Southern Ocean.

I pick my boat based on how I will use it, not on some unlikely trip I will never take.
And herin is the reason I would have a Haber.

The boats are totally custom. I mean totally. If I want vents here and there, opening ports, davits, etc etc...... I can have it. I can alter ANYTHING internally within reason. Put in A/C. heating, water makers, generator etc.
It has internal steering position. as well as tiller. It has a unique self steering and deep centre boards retractable etc. Haber will make how I want it.

It is one of the few vessels I would be happy with for lots of reasons none of which include giving up a Cat unless I had to have a monohull.. And if I had to.... for $250K this would suit single handed sailor me....


The average mature sailor tends to go toward motor sailers or Catamarans as we slow down a bit..

I could handle this one happily. It ticks all the boxes.
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Old 28-05-2014, 16:47   #674
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohan View Post
Whew! I read about half of this huge thread. I'll interrupt this discussion to go back to the topic.

To answer the OP's question, does it count if you were a "multi-huller" only in your own mind?

I've been looking at a lot of boats the last two years and plan to buy a new one soon when I retire. For a long time I was firmly convinced that a multi-hull was the way to go, and that's all I would charter. But now I'm starting to actually lean toward monohulls instead, and no, it's not just because of price. Actually, with a brand-new boat, the price difference isn't that huge. My monohull experience is admittedly very limited, but these are the factors that are starting to convince me to favor monohulls:
  1. Simply better looking.
  2. Better weight carrying capacity, and normally much more compartments for storage.
  3. Newer, beamier boats with hull chines sail very flat. Not as flat as a multi-hull, but they still don't heel nearly as much as the monohulls of old. Some examples are the Beneteau Oceanis series, the Jeanneau Sun Odysseys, and the newer Dufours. So while stability is important to me, the difference is not as huge as I originally estimated.
  4. Monohulls have better accomodations overall, IMO (as long as your boat is large enough to avoid those pointy V-berth bunks!)
  5. Sailing performance is about the same for blue water cruising, because the weight of the extra supplies and gear you need to take aboard hurts catamaran performance more than a monohull.
  6. Much better visibility from the cockpit.
  7. With bowthrusters, maneuverability is superior to cats.
  8. Cheaper marina fees overall.

Everything is relative, of course. I could still go either way, depending on the best deal I can find.

Out of all the boats I've considered, the Neel 45, of all things, seems to have to best of both worlds, all the advantages of a mono and multihull (except for visibility and marina fees, because it's wide as hell). It is beautiful, although certainly not at first glance. I would buy one in a heartbeat, except a new one goes for about $550K, a little out of my price range, and it hasn't been around long enough for very many used ones on the market.
Well reasoned-I agree except for item 6. Many Cats have great cockpit visability.
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Old 28-05-2014, 17:04   #675
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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It's obvious you've been talking to a monohull salesman!!
Guilty as charged! But I promise I have been talking to catamaran salesmen too. One of the highest priorites on my list is storage and carrying capacity. Still, I probably won't make my final decision for almost a year and a lot can change between now and then.

To me, the leopards are the least ugly of the cats, and I consider them very strongly as well.
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