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Old 13-05-2014, 19:44   #646
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Heaving too on mine in rough seas and a bow anchor, I dont think so,

I turn into the wind to drop the Main as the sea and wind climb up, about 20 knots and over,
Thats the only time my bows go under, and water rolls across the deck, Hatches were open weren't they, So my bed and salon got drowned,

A drogue would act the same on my Cat, A following sea would crash on board from over the transom, I wont do that either,

I found it easier to just run in front of the bad weather, Its comfortable, Its easy, Its safe,
Nothing is stressed, So I dont break any thing,

getting the speed right between the waves takes some doing, But once you get it close,
Sit back and relax, and ride it out,

Most storms are usually a day or so, Sailing diagonally across the front of the storm, 24 hours later and you have more than likely sailed out of the storm, Thats approx 100 miles,

Its full harness and connected on my solid front deck in bad weather, I just dont go out there, There is no need to go out there, Genoa is connected to the cockpit,

I dont think that there are too many Mono Hullers that will stand on their bows in bad weather either,

Diagonal sailing takes the Rush out of sailing down the front of a wave and crashing into the back of the front wave,
Slows the boat down, Very Controllable speed,
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Old 13-05-2014, 21:59   #647
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Re: Do multihullers ever go back?

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Im loving the chats..... sarcasm is my favourite method of communication.
lol
progress!
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Old 14-05-2014, 00:15   #648
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Been gone for 3 days on a delivery up the West Coast, with a nice window (F3-4 on the nose instead of F7). I don't seem to have missed much except for Tomfl demonstrating that he has never been out in a real seaway. I think this thread has way passed its use by date.
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Old 14-05-2014, 00:22   #649
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Been gone for 3 days on a delivery up the West Coast, with a nice window (F3-4 on the nose instead of F7). I don't seem to have missed much except for Tomfl demonstrating that he has never been out in a real seaway. I think this thread has way passed its use by date.
Been a couple more move over while you were away donradcliffe. Alls good.

QUOTE: "Re: 40 Ft. - Windlass Choices
Hi David,
on our last boat I bought a new Maxwell HRC 10/8 with capstan. I found it very easy to use and reliable although it was only on the boat for 18 months prior to us selling it. It was an easy install. The solenoid is very well built and also easy to install. As we used it in free fall when dropping anchor the wife always found it easy to deploy while I was on the helm. Our boat was a 38 ft sloop with a weight of around 8.5 ton. We had 100 metres of 8mm chain and it was never an issue raising the anchor.
The winch on the boat we have just bought (Lagoon 41 Catamaran) is on its way out and we will be replacing it with the HRC 10/10 (for 10mm chain). We also found that Maxwell were very well priced for what you were buying with great back up. I don't think you would be disappointed in buying the one your looking at. One thing to take into consideration is the current footprint of your existing windlass and how the new one will fit in case it needs some modification on the boat.


Lake Macquarie NSW
Australia "

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Old 14-05-2014, 02:49   #650
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
Slamming occurs when waves hit the bridge deck or hulls at a bad angle. Since only multihulls have bridge decks only multihulls can get slammed by waves hitting the bridge deck.


But both monohulls and multihulls can get by slammed by waves hitting a hull. I have always found the best solution to slamming is to alter the course of the boat till slamming abates, be one be on a monohull or multihull.

Of course I am not a delivery capt forced to make passages in a bad weather window or a noobie who does not know the meaning of a weather window.
I actually would call this wave slapping. Completely different then slamming. Slamming happens when you come down on a wave with your bridgedeck and the boat stops moving down immediately due to hydrostatic forces. It's pretty unmistakable which is which when it happens.

Lot's of cat owners say they don't slam. It's hard to believe unless they really haven't been out in seriously large steep waves.
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Old 14-05-2014, 04:12   #651
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

We did a 100 mile down wind run last year in our 32' cat in nasty confused following seas. We slept at diff times. We ate. Walked all around the boat. Never spilled a drink and never felt bad. Our friends in a 42' mono looked like they were in survival mode trying to keep their boat going straight.
Back when we had a 32 mono and we were in the nasty we had to jackline In and it was very unsafe trying to go forward to do anything. On our cats it feels much safer.

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Old 14-05-2014, 04:40   #652
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Originally Posted by Polux View Post
No this as I said has nothing to do with design but with taste. You have boats as fast as this ones with a wood or mixed look. I prefer also a mixed look buy obviously some prefer a more zen approach.


Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Well if you like the boat, but can only get it in one look and not to your "taste", then its designed that way.....

Splitting hairs I know....... but I get irritated when I love a boat for what it is and hate the interior and dont have a choice to change it cheaply.
Sorry about that it missed a word and changed what I wanted to say that was pretty much the opposed:

corrected now:

"No this as I said has nothing to do with weight but with design and with taste. You have boats as fast as this ones with a wood or mixed look. I prefer also a mixed look buy obviously some prefer a more zen approach."


Regarding all this discussion it seems evident now that some change from cats to monohull, the reasons pointed are comfort in a sea way, stairs inside the boat when sailing (difficulty in moving), maintenance costs, difficulty in hauling out.

So leaving fundamentalists aside we can say that some just prefer mono-hulls, even having owned multi-hulls, others not and the reasons why most prefer multihulls vary being by far the most common more space and a saloon view and that's why the dominant type of multihulls by far are the condo cat type, that offers a reasonable performance and lots of space.

Regarding fundamentalists some say that the cats don't pound, only slap, but a cat owner described that the slap was so bad in even moderated conditions, that on a very popular type of cat it was impossible to stand on the saloon and we know of a recent case where in not extreme conditions a new cat had the rudders out of service because it "slapped" on the wave and went backwards. Big slap

It seems pretty evident to me that both type has advantages and disadvantages and that the choice of the right compromise, as in any type of boat, has to do with the right and wrong advantages to each sailor.

It is obvious that if the cat was the right choice for everybody we would see on the market offer more cats than monohulls and that is not the case. It is not only a question of price. If it was only that we would have cheap mass production monohulls but we would not have expensive production monohulls. It is not only a question of speed since if it was only that we would not have performance monohulls. In fact depending on the sea conditions and type of boat a performance monohull can be faster than a fast cat of the same size and more seaworthy in really bad conditions (the same size). More seawothy does mot mean necessarily that the boat sinks, but that it just sails better regarding the conditions.

To get a good picture of the comparative performances bluewater we can see the results on the ARC on the last years, with about 300 sailboats and about 10% cats or looking in what regards racing to the results of transats were multihulls and monohulls race together.

Even if on those top ones cats have been abandoned for trimarans, maybe a bit slower but more seaworthy, we can see that every-time they get rough sea, and that's very frequent 50ft top trimarans are clearly beaten by 60ft monohulls, that the breakage, including capsizing is much bigger in multihulls and that sometimes, when the weather is really bad (like this year), they have to wait for the right window for the multihulls, with the guys from the monohulls protesting that the weather is fine.

So, multihulls and monohulls are just fine and I don't see any risk of any of them to disappear. I would like very much to see them on the Sydney Hobart from where they are excluded for safety reasons. I think it is pure conservatism and there is no reason for them not to racing. I think that we would get a good picture of what they really worth is rough conditions. I don't think that the big ones (70ft and over) would have any problem with the weather or winning clearly the race but regarding 50fters and smaller probably we would have a lot of surprises, at least for the ones that think that a fast multihull with the same size is always faster than a monohull.
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Old 14-05-2014, 05:31   #653
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pirate Re: Do multihullers ever go back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
Sad to say I am to old and weak to climb down the stairs to go below.

But when I am on deck with the sails up I have noticed that there is not always a direct relationship between wind speed and wave size, and more importantly wave period. If big waves have a long period and the wind and wave direction are constant on many points of sail it is trivial to judge how to walk around the boat with out falling.

On the other hand even a fifteen knot wind out of the North crossing the Gulf Stream with say five or six foot square waves will often cause someone to have problems walking around a boat.

My objection to your post was the claim that at X wind speed and Y wave height you could not safely move around on a catamaran. There is a lot more to it than that. Some boats, monohull or multihull, can be very uncomfortable in certain sea states and not others.
True.. there is a lot more to it than that... things like predominant ocean swell... storm created cross swell and wind directional wave action... this can leave you with water movement coming from 3 directions once you get a decent distance offshore.. the E. Coast of the US where you appear to sail is much more predictable.. if its blowing over 20 from the N don't go out..
As you have posted before you work delivering boats and often don't have the option of altering course, slowing down, or even simply staying in port waiting for better weather. You have to go out and get somewhere even if it is uncomfortable.
Kinda hard ducking into port mid Atlantic... I think heaving to/fore reaching is slowing down.. but I could be wrong..
I have no doubt you have spent more time than you liked in uncomfortable conditions while I was sitting in my salon at anchor watching a beautiful sunset. But that does not negate the fact that if you take any boat, monohull or multihull, out in bad weather on a course you can not change it will be uncomfortable, something you do for a living and I avoid.
You obviously did not follow my last trip with 'Spot'.. seemed everyone was trying to figure out why I kept varying my course..
This may be why we disagree about how easy it is to move around on multihulls. If I am in bad weather I reef or lower the main and use a working jib (or bare poles, but I have only done that twice) to run from the weather instead of beating into it. I also feel very comfortable surfing down waves. Been surfing since I was in junior highschool and drove race boats in SORC races in following seas.
I suppose you think I beat on regardless under full sail... sorry to disappoint.. my main is always at maximum reef and I use the genoa to drive the boat... yes.. even when the wind is from ahead..
Tho' a fast delivery is always nice I do not choose to beat up the boat and myself just to gain a few miles.. to many boats get into trouble and sink or are abandoned trying to do that.. ain't gonna happen.. especially mid ocean.. makes the rescue so much longer than when ones pootling about by the Gulf Stream..
We just have very different obligations about when and where the boats we are on have to be.
And different choices on the distance from land..
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Old 14-05-2014, 05:46   #654
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

This morning I went to visit an elderly patient (late 80s) in Cwmbran Wales. He has been a "cruiser" all his life but on the canal system. We had a great old chat about his life and i got to look at photos of years gone by. He showed me decorative rope fenders that he had made in his 20s.

This man had worked delivery produce on the canal system here (and also in France and Germany in the 1970s.) Such a rich knowledge of rivers and canals. I was honoured to meet him.
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Old 14-05-2014, 06:06   #655
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
trimarans, maybe a bit slower
Yep, that is why they hold and have held RTW records for many many years, cause they are slow.

Quote:
I would like very much to see them on the Sydney Hobart from where they are excluded for safety reasons.
No evidence of that (saftey issues and on that I find it interesting that 3 of the most recent deaths were because a traditional yacht sank)- there is however evidence of bloody mindedness.
Quote:
I think it is pure conservatism and there is no reason for them not to racing. I think that we would get a good picture of what they really worth is rough conditions. I don't think that the big ones (70ft and over) would have any problem with the weather or winning clearly the race but regarding 50fters and smaller probably we would have a lot of surprises, at least for the ones that think that a fast multihull with the same size is always faster than a monohull.
We will never know. Guys who spent millions on monos don't want to get beat up by Tri's
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Old 14-05-2014, 07:43   #656
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Re: Do multihullers ever go back?

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And different choices on the distance from land..
No doubt we have much different experiences. One of mine includes reading a huge number of posts from Zee about your trip on Spot. Also read a huge number of posts about your problems getting paid for delivery.

But none of this addresses the question the OP posted.

What this thread confirms is some folks like monohulls and other folks like multihulls. The sad thing is at some point these threads always seem to turn into a 'mine is bigger than yours' contest or some folks simply posting insults about someone they know nothing about.

I seem to remember a couple of folks directly answering the OP's question saying they did go back to a mono after owning a multi. Several more, me included, said they had not and it was unlikely they would.

But most of the posts seem to be from folks who claim multihulls are expensive, comfortable, fast, and safe or folks saying multihulls are expensive, uncomfortable, not as fast as claimed, and sometimes unsafe.

If you go back to some of the early posts you will find I said the reason I selected my boat was because it seemed the best one for the type of sailing I would be doing in the area I would be doing it in. I also posted if I was doing something else, like rounding the great capes, I would choose a much different boat. A lot of folks would agree with me that a steel hull monohull would be the boat of choice for rounding the great capes; problem is almost no one does that.

But I suspect a lot more folks would agree that for what I will call 'gentleman sailing' their first choice would be a catamaran, as long as they could afford it.
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Old 14-05-2014, 07:59   #657
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

We've been spending afternoons on our cat in the local marina almost every day since New Years, working on the boat. dozens of cruisers have been through in that time, and we find ourselves talking to quite a few of them. And it's quite obvious that, for whatever reason, a noticeable percentage of monohull cruisers are interested in going to multihulls. We're fit into a slip here and still have room for a mono next to us, which is also a topic of conversation. Based upon personal observation and comments here, the obvious and flogged to death answer to the OP question is "Yes, rarely. "
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Old 14-05-2014, 07:59   #658
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Re: Do multihullers ever go back?

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Originally Posted by tomfl View Post

If you go back to some of the early posts you will find I said the reason I selected my boat was because it seemed the best one for the type of sailing I would be doing in the area
Hi Tom
If a Catamaran were not avaialble to you in your cruising area:
  • Would you give up sailing?
  • Would you select a Monohull?
  • assuming yes: what type and size of Monohull?




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Old 14-05-2014, 08:08   #659
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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I actually would call this wave slapping. Completely different then slamming. Slamming happens when you come down on a wave with your bridgedeck and the boat stops moving down immediately due to hydrostatic forces. It's pretty unmistakable which is which when it happens.

Lot's of cat owners say they don't slam. It's hard to believe unless they really haven't been out in seriously large steep waves.
Point taken, there is a difference between wave slapping and slamming.

None of the cat owners I know say their boats don't slam, but maybe you know some I don't. What is hard for me to believe is that anyone would say cats have to be in seriously large steep waves to slam.
\
Few cats have a bridge deck clearance more than three feet so with normal boat movement a two foot wave might well (and in my experience often does) slam into the bridge deck.

I have been in Hawks Channel in very calm seas when a Searay 55 blasted past me and his wake slammed into my bridge deck. Also was out past the reef when the outer bands of Andrea hit in what the NWS said was 8-12 foot seas (I was testing mods I had just done to my reefing system) and the boat never slammed once, but I was being very careful.

The good cat owners I know say slamming is more a function of the course you are on than any other factor and a slight change in course will stop the slamming.

While this is mostly the case there are exceptions. A confused sea with the wave direction changing combined with the wind continually heading and lifting and gusting can result in slamming no matter what you do. Sometimes in these conditions there can be a fine line between slamming and slapping.

The real issue for me is how often is there a combination of adverse conditions that result a seaway that is worse for cats than monohulls, and perhaps more to the point how often will I be out in those conditions.
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Old 14-05-2014, 08:13   #660
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Point taken, there is a difference between wave slapping and slamming.
Yes. Perhaps we need to be more clear when addressing, or responding to a comment regarding this. I too am guilty of lack of clarity based on the assumption that the other person knows the difference too. Apologies.
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