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Old 11-05-2014, 04:43   #466
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

I figure the multi vs. mono is like religion. Folks will argue this until the end of time.

What about the Trimaran vs. Cat??

From all that I have researched and conjured up……. Boats that are less than 50 feet or so…… The Trimaran is inherently more stable and thus more seaworthy than a Cat of similar size. It is when the Cats move up into the 60ish feet that they begin to demonstrate more stability in heavy weather….

Any thoughts or experiences with this……??
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Old 11-05-2014, 05:17   #467
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

A passing ship informed me we were having Force six winds,

I thought it was a good Breeze, My boat was moving, about 12 knots, I was going west instead of south,
Thats as far as I wanted to push it, Im not a good sailor, and I dont want to break some thing,
It was a Lot stronger than Force Six later that same day, But my Cat still remained fairly level,
Its still pleasant sailing, With out pitching and rolling,
and it didnt bob around, I certainly was never thrown around in the worst weather I went thru, Bad weather, I still hang on, Its a Natural reflex,

Its not fun driving my boat head on into very strong winds, 4 metre waves, Its all motor work, and if you get a strong current running as well, You can end up going back wards, I was,
Its like riding a Bucking Bronco, And the slamming down as you come over the top of a wave is quite Frightening,
How many times can a Hull take a slam like that before it Craps itself, Just from Pure Fatigue,
I avoid sailing up wind, Its not necessary, Wait a day or two and the wind goes where you want it too, So you sail in comfort,
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Old 11-05-2014, 05:37   #468
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pirate Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I avoid sailing up wind, Its not necessary, Wait a day or two and the wind goes where you want it too, So you sail in comfort,
Owners get upset if/when I do that..
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Old 11-05-2014, 05:54   #469
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

You will be retired one day Boatie, Then you can putt around the ocean at your leisure, Like I do,

Till then, Suffer, hahahaha
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Old 11-05-2014, 06:24   #470
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I don't understand. You quoted yourself accurately as "The "Voyage" catamarans are long range cruising cats and in that respect they are performance cats", right after you claimed you didn't say that.

I couldn't help but interpret that statement as saying that long range cruising cats are de facto performance cats. Maybe I am being dense.
No, I did not said that all range cruising cats are performance cats but that the cats from the brand "Voyage" among other long range cats could be considered performance cats, but if you don't see the difference I will not insist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
...
As for sitting back and "running the numbers", you aren't getting real-life story. Take the V440 for instance. Here are two pictures of it under sail, along with a picture of its bridgedeck. Notice those many 10" vertical panels hanging down from the bridgedeck? Yes, those are vertical panels - go look at one and see for yourself.

Now ask yourself what happens when a boat with almost no vertical bridgedeck clearance and 10" vertical panels hanging down from it goes out for a sail. Run that through your "numbers" and justify its relative performance.
..
It is amazing as you "bash" a cat that has been one of the most successful charter and voyage cats on the market for many years

It seems to me that if they were that bad nobody would want them or since they had have several versions if that bottom was so bad it should already been substituted and I thought also that we were talking about current models ... that overloaded boat you posted is not the Voyage 450 but one of he first versions of the Voyage 440.

You seem to think that all those sailors that in considerable numbers chose the Voyage 440/450, that the charter companies that operated them are plain dumb, not to mention the designer or the shipyard that with so many obviously wrong things like "10 vertical panels hanging down" would not have changed them in different boat versions. You are just one more that think you know better than the ones that design and build a high successful boat

Those fins are functional and are designed to provide the boat directional stability when a big wave passes there. Here you have better photos of a more modern boat (still a 440) that can give an idea of its function:



]

This one is a voyage 450:



and this is a Leopard 44:



Regarding both boats, the Leopard 44 and the Voyage 450 they represent different philosophies, the one of the Leopard following the more popular condo trend and the Voyage 450 one less condo oriented, more sail oriented, even if also with a big interior space. If we look at both boats, besides the aspects I have already refereed regarding a better finesse on the Voyage 450 and a way bigger sail area displacement we can see that the two boats look for power in different ways (stability): The Voyage 450 lowering the center of gravity and with a bigger beam, the Leopard 44 with weight (more 3400kg).

Off course, the higher CG and bigger weight allows the Leopard 44 to have an adequate stability and to offer this:



At the cost of sail performance not only due to the needed more weight to counterbalance the effects of the higher CG but also due to the huge windage that the boat will have and the negative effects at several levels that implies.

Just looking at the two boats we cannot see the weight difference but clearly can see the difference in windage and CG.





Regarding sail performance, besides what we can predict analyzing the boat design, in what refers to testing, I have information regarding the Leopard 44, for having sailed side by side an for several test sails published on magazines. The performance is what is to be expected to that type of boat:

13K wind 6.5K at 55º, taking on 110º and and a comparatively better performance on open courses. The version with the performance main sail can make with 12K wind 7.5k at 65º of the wind.

Regarding sailing side by side with one, going with a 41ft monohull slightly faster than a 44, the difference in pointing ability was so huge (about 20º) that my wife asked me where they where going (since they were pointing to the open ocean) refusing to believe they could not do better.

Leopard 44 Catamaran Sailboat Review | Cruising World
Leopard 44 | Sail Magazine





Regarding the Voyage 440/450 I have some information from boat owners but that tend to be much less valid not only because they tend to inflate the performances of their own boats as they are not professional testers with a big experience doing that, anyway just for reference I have heard some not reliable statements like the ones that it can point as well as a monohull (posted already) or more credible ones, like this one, that seems credible to me:

"How fast is she? This is the single most common question from fellow sailors. The speed of these cruising catamarans is blown well out of realism by some manufactures, dealers, and a few owners. These are not 'speed boats' but they are highly comfortable cruising boats. Yes, under some situations, they will sail significantly faster than a like sized mono hull. In other situations, they will not sail as fast. In normal conditions, they perform at about the same level as a modern mono hull of similar length. On a reach or broad reach in 15+ knots of wind, they will have a good turn of speed and start to show distance to a like sized mono hull. If you need to sail close hauled, less than 45-50 degrees apparent wind, the speed will fall off and will not match a modern same size mono hull. If you ease off the catamaran to 55-60 degrees and let the speed build, both the mono hull and catamaran will get to a windward harbor about the same time.

Our 'fastest recorded speed', (still held on the primary GPS and the back up GPS) is 21.2 knots. That must have happened in some sort of time warp because I have never seen anything like that speed on either the GPS or the knot meter. Because a cat will accelerate quickly in a wind gust, a normal, high speed burst, on a broad reach, in gusting 25+ knots of wind would be around 14 knots with average speeds being in the 10-13 knot range. At 25+ knots of wind, we reef down the sails and stay comfortable but the boat wants to GO. "


Our Boat

This performance is the one of a loaded boat while the one posted previously regarding the Leopard 44 was of a light boat (sail magazines tests).

The hulls design, the superior finesse, the much lesser weight, the much bigger SA/displacement, the superior power (lower CG and bigger beam) and the much smaller windage will make a the Voyage 450 a faster boat and one with not only a considerably better sail performance but also one with a more easier rig to manage, since being much lighter (even with a much bigger SA/D) needs a lot less sail area (104m2 to 123m2).

I am not going to continue this pleasant exchange of information since I am already overdue to my sailing season. Internet forums are just something I participate while I cannot go sailing and that I stop while cruising or sailing. Then I have more interesting things to do I will be back late October.
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:27   #471
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
SNIP
Our 'fastest recorded speed', (still held on the primary GPS and the back up GPS) is 21.2 knots. That must have happened in some sort of time warp because I have never seen anything like that speed on either the GPS or the knot meter. Because a cat will accelerate quickly in a wind gust, a normal, high speed burst, on a broad reach, in gusting 25+ knots of wind would be around 14 knots with average speeds being in the 10-13 knot range. At 25+ knots of wind, we reef down the sails and stay comfortable but the boat wants to GO. "


SNIP

Every boat I have ever seen, monohull or multihull, reaches its fastest speed falling down the face of wave. The video I posted earlier discusses how a sound cat in big waves accelerates going down the face of a wave and considerations in dealing with this issue.

While some boats, both monohull and multihull, can sail faster than the wind so far the top speed of any sail boat on soft water (as opposed to ice boats) is about fifty knots. But realistically the top sustained speed for sail powered boats is probably around thirty five knots (for something like Bank Pop/Spindrift) and this probably requires a pro level crew.

For production boats the Farrier designs are known for providing spartan cruising at speeds between fifteen to twenty knots at prices many can afford. Gunboats, TAGs, Outremers, can reach somewhat similar speeds but at prices that few can afford. There are some other multihulls, especially one offs, in this speed class for cruising boats; and also some monohulls that are only a little slower. There may be some exceptions but they are few and far between.

Even at places like SA the issue of cost is discussed. Most of us probably limit our boat purchases to less than $US500,000; and for me a lot less than that. This means the really fast cruisers like a Gunboat is above our price point. If we are seriously cruising the Fboats really don't provide space and load carrying ability most folks need.

I have previously posted that I selected my boat with specific requirements; some of them deal breakers. First the boat had to be capable of being singled handed by me at my age, strength, size, and ability levels. I would be sailing in the Florida Keys and the Bahamas for the majority of the time; shallow water and short mostly daylight passages in good weather if I am willing to wait for a weather window. Ability to carry a few toys that while not so heavy may be bulky (kayak, big hooka, diving gear, cameras and computers) in safety.

Perhaps the most important requirement was the boat had to be fun for me to sail. I suspect lots of us have the same last requirement I do.
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:37   #472
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Perhaps the most important requirement was the boat had to be fun for me to sail. I suspect lots of us have the same last requirement I do.
I consider this to be the first requirement as long as all the others were there.
Whats the point of having the perfect wife if you dont like her.....
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:45   #473
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

> I avoid sailing up wind, Its not necessary, Wait a day or two and the wind goes where you want it too

In some places. Around here we have to wait for up to 6 months if we don't want to beat into the South Easterlies.
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:54   #474
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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> I avoid sailing up wind, Its not necessary, Wait a day or two and the wind goes where you want it too

In some places. Around here we have to wait for up to 6 months if we don't want to beat into the South Easterlies.
One of my favorite boats, that my Dad bought when I was in junior high school, was an Abaco schooner. It was designed for Bahamas sailing, shallow draft, wide, and easy to sail. But at one time he also had an H28 which I consider a classic down East boat. The H28 would point much better than the Abaco schooner, but it was also a somewhat more tender boat.

Lots of boats are specifically designed for a particular place to sail. I know my boat has features that are much better suited to the Bahamas than the South Pacific.
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:56   #475
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It is amazing as you "bash" a cat that has been one of the most successful charter and voyage cats on the market for many years

that overloaded boat you posted is not the Voyage 450 but one of he first versions of the Voyage 440.

Those fins are functional and are designed to provide the boat directional stability when a big wave passes there.

I am not going to continue this pleasant exchange of information since I am already overdue to my sailing season. Internet forums are just something I participate while I cannot go sailing and that I stop while cruising or sailing. Then I have more interesting things to do I will be back late October.
Enjoy your sailing. I too have reached exhaustion on this.

A couple of points, though.

You were the one that brought the V440 into the discussion, then pivoted to a new model when it was convenient for you to make a different point.

I wasn't bashing the boat - I was contesting it being a "performance" catamaran, which you seem very enamored with.

The pictures I posted were not of an overloaded boat - it is a stripped charter version. That is how they sit while sailing. A loaded cruising version will be worse.

You really do not understand catamaran design. Those longitudinal stringers are for supporting the large flat expanse of bridgedeck. They are not for "directional stability". However, those stringers are common design elements that have no real performance issues and I wasn't addressing them. I was addressing the athwartship vertical "walls" in that design. I cannot figure out why someone would design 10-12" vertical walls under the bridgedeck of a catamaran. And believe me, these things catch water.

Again, have you actually seen a new Leopard out of the water? You keep going on about "fineness", which I assume you mean hull L/B. The Leopard has a chine to knockout room above the waterline. Below the water, it is surprisingly fine with a very modern rocker and run design. I know I was surprised the first time I saw it out of the water. But I guess without those directional stabilizers, it is skidding all over the seas...

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Old 11-05-2014, 08:13   #476
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Those fins are functional and are designed to provide the boat directional stability when a big wave passes there.
Ah, no, they're there to stiffen the bridgedeck floor.
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Old 11-05-2014, 08:16   #477
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Ah, no, they're there to stiffen the bridgedeck floor.
And a stiff bridgedeck floor is always a good thing.
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Old 11-05-2014, 08:20   #478
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Stiletto 30 vs 27

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Now it's turning into a biggest swinging ___ thread.

This one clocked over 20knots regularly, with my 10 year old for crew. About $15K. The engine is not running; we lowered it for drag as my daughter was taking pictures for a sale ad, and in 5 knots she was reaching at ~ 8 knots. Fast on very few dollars. Can you buy a cheaper 27' mono of the same age (1981)? Sure. And when the breeze is up this will sail 1.5 to 2x the speed. Period. We sailed around monos like they were fixed points, perhaps anchored but dragging. She motors 12knots.

Are there equivalent monohulls? Sure, but they don't have a refrigerator and queen berths either.




Cruising boat? We spent weeks on her, cruising far.





Is my current boat that fast? Not at all, yet I can keep up with any similarly loaded cruising mono that isn't at least 6 feet longer, 8-10 feet off the wind. I have tweaked her a bit above and below, and I do know how to sail. I'm sure there are some racing skippers that can do better, closing the gap, but they will still some water line advantage. But I miss my Stiletto.
Just reading thru this subject thread, and had to comment on this posting. Did you ever get a chance to experience the Stiletto 30?. I liked it much better than the 27.
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Old 11-05-2014, 08:31   #479
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
The dirty little secret most of us mono owners never want to admit in public is that the vast majority of cruisers (like 90%) would be cruising on Cats if they were the same price as monos!
The price keeps monos being build, bought and cruised! We have a 50ft floating condo of a mono (A Hudson Force 50) but it still doesn't have the space or living aboard comforts of a Lagoon 380. Bring down the price of a Cat to the same price of monos and besides the die hards (which will no doubt flip out at my comment here) it’s game over for monohulls.

There....someone had to say it......
There are certainly some elements of truth in what you say there.....especially in the price differences in todays prices for new builds.

But I think one item that is being ignored on this subject thread is that there are a lot of folks who actually prefer the motion of a monohull at sea for a long cruise.
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Old 11-05-2014, 08:37   #480
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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There are certainly some elements of truth in what you say there.....especially in the price differences in todays prices for new builds.

But I think one item that is being ignored on this subject thread is that there are a lot of folks who actually prefer the motion of a monohull at sea for a long cruise.
HI Brian.
I like the motion of a large monohull on extended sailing.

At the same time, I like the motion of a Catamaran too, except in one sea state which makes me go off wind a few degrees. I also do not like the same seastate motion in a monohull.

Its not either or, although some would have us choose......
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