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Old 10-05-2014, 11:04   #436
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Not knocking Seawind 1000 or shuttleworths , but I really think our L38 outperforms all of them


Wait for it




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Old 10-05-2014, 11:59   #437
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
---
I don't understand your definition as any boat designed for long-range cruising being de facto a performance cruiser. ...
That is easy to understand why!!!.... that's because I never said that

What I said was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
What is called a performance boat varies with the intention: Racing, cruising/racing or just cruising. The "Voyage" catamarans are long range cruising cats and in that respect they are performance cats....Being performance cats or not, like on monohulls, it will result of a comparison of their performance with the one that is typical on the main market cats, I mean, the ones that are by far the most sold cruising cats.... the Lagoon, Fountain-Pajot, Leopard type.

Those cats for a 44 ft size have typically about 12000kgof weight and a sail area of about 86m2.

The boat that on Voyage yachts substituted the 440 weights 9200kg and has 105m2 of sail area.
Obviously I am talking about a brand of Catamarans whose name is "Voyage Catamarans" not about all catamarans that are used to voyage.

http://voyageyachts.com/


Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I promise you that the current line of FP and Leopard cats will out-perform the current line of Voyage cats. Don't believe me - just please go sail on them before making your claims. Yes, the current Lagoons are heavy slugs, but past models would at least match the V440 performance.....

Once again I make this Quixotic plea - please actually have some experience or direct knowledge about these boats that one is speaking on with such expertise. Will anyone here step up and describe their experiences?
The lagoon 440 I was talking about with more than 12000kg is a past model. The new 45 has more than 15000kg.

If you know something about boat design you can look at a design, weight/sail area, hull finesse and approximately estimate the comparative performances of two boats and if they are way different in performance be sure that a boat is faster than another. Regarding having sailed the two boats I have seen some surprises: It is actually more subjective, some boats are actually fast without giving an impression of speed and others are the other way around. Difficult to know without having the two boats on the water at the same time for comparison and I bet you did not do that. Actually it is easier to see it with a designer VPP. They are pretty much accurate.

Not having that we can see that the current Leopard 44 weights 12615kg while the current Voyage 450 weights 9200kg. The sail area/displacement of the Leopard is 19.8 and the one of the Voyage 450 is way bigger: 24.1.

With identical hulls the Voyage 450 would be a lot faster and it would be needed a big difference in finesse, meaning the hulls of the Voyage 450 had be a lot beamier, for the Leopard to be able to approach its potential speed, but it is quite the contrary, the difference in speed for the Leopard will be even bigger than what the difference in SA/D suggests, since the Voyage 450 hulls are a lot narrower, with much finer entries. We can see that on the Leopard 44 it is possible to put a big cabin with a double bed inside the forward part of the hull while on the Voyage 450 there no space not even for a small cabin.





So, the Leopard 44 faster than the Voyage 450? No way!!!mot even close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
And if Baldwin thought that Dean rattled his teeth off, he has not experienced a V440 in rougher conditions. Even in calmer conditions those boats sound like bombs are going off under them. Friends of ours with one complain that their feet hurt from the pounding and they can't stand in the cockpit or saloon when going up wind.
I know that this type of boats will make a lot of noise, I have even heard stories of lateral hatches blown away and of course, being the Voyage 450 faster it can be worse but I don't think that it is better on the Leopard 44.

Have a look (this is the 450DC version but it is the same hull), first the Voyage 450 hull and then the Leopard 44 hull:





and no worse certainly than the average of these type of cats first a Lagoon 440 then a Fountain Pajot 44:





Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Below this line are just cruising cats. I won't enter the debate about what constitutes a "condomaran" because I think that is derogative, uninformed and know from experience that these "condomarans" are at least keeping pace, and almost always out-performing, the main types of cruising monohulls out here - Formosa's and their copies, Liberties, Westsails, Tayanas, etc.
Finally we agree yes certainly what is called condo cats (and I don't call it that way in a negative way) have a better performance then most old heavy mono-hull cruisers and I have said that already, depending on the type of the points of sail, sea and wind conditions, can have a better or worse performance than most modern monohull cruisers. They have a worse performance than a modern monohull performance cruiser. That is a lot for a boat that offers condo accommodations and a huge deck space.
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Old 10-05-2014, 12:01   #438
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
I would like to learn from this thread. Posters like tomfl and others that have fast, light multis, what is your motion like in big seas?

I've only had one boat that I cruised, a Cal 40. Before I purchased it I had what I thought knowledgeable folks tell me that old race boats wouldn't make a good cruiser. I'm glad they were wrong.

If I return to cruising at a later date, I'm considering a race multi converted to a cruiser since the Cal 40 made such a good (but spartan) cruiser.

There is a Formula 40 cat that has been converted to a fast cruiser. 3' was added to her waterline to accommodate the added weight of a bridge structure. Even so it is still a flyweight at 3000 kg @ 43'. Hull efficiency is such that max motoring speed is 10.5 kt using a pair of 9.9 hp outboards. Design and build was by Adrian Tompson and first owner was Francis Joyon.

OK all you folks that have sailing experience in light and fast multis like tomfl and others, your thoughts and ideas please.
The first thing you will notice about cruising a catamaran like that is how wet it is. Pure joy at times, and pure drudgery in other times.

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Old 10-05-2014, 12:28   #439
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That is easy to understand why!!!.... that's because I never said that

What I said was:



Obviously I am talking about a brand of Catamarans whose name is "Voyage Catamarans" not about all catamarans that are used to voyage.

VOYAGE yachts catamarans, award winning sailing catamarans




The lagoon 440 I was talking about with more than 12000kg is a past model. The new 45 has more than 15000kg.

If you know something about boat design you can look at a design, weight/sail area, hull finesse and approximately estimate the comparative performances of two boats and if they are way different in performance be sure that a boat is faster than another. Regarding having sailed the two boats I have seen some surprises: It is actually more subjective, some boats are actually fast without giving an impression of speed and others are the other way around. Difficult to know without having the two boats on the water at the same time for comparison and I bet you did not do that. Actually it is easier to see it with a designer VPP. They are pretty much accurate.

Not having that we can see that the current Leopard 44 weights 12615kg while the current Voyage 450 weights 9200kg. The sail area/displacement of the Leopard is 19.8 and the one of the Voyage 450 is way bigger: 24.1.

With identical hulls the Voyage 450 would be a lot faster and it would be needed a big difference in finesse, meaning the hulls of the Voyage 450 had be a lot beamier, for the Leopard to be able to approach its potential speed, but it is quite the contrary, the difference in speed for the Leopard will be even bigger than what the difference in SA/D suggests, since the Voyage 450 hulls are a lot narrower, with much finer entries. We can see that on the Leopard 44 it is possible to put a big cabin with a double bed inside the forward part of the hull while on the Voyage 450 there no space not even for a small cabin.

So, the Leopard 44 faster than the Voyage 450? No way!!!mot even close.


I know that this type of boats will make a lot of noise, I have even heard stories of lateral hatches blown away and of course, being the Voyage 450 faster it can be worse but I don't think that it is better on the Leopard 44.
I don't understand. You quoted yourself accurately as "The "Voyage" catamarans are long range cruising cats and in that respect they are performance cats", right after you claimed you didn't say that.

I couldn't help but interpret that statement as saying that long range cruising cats are de facto performance cats. Maybe I am being dense.

I'm not going to argue this with you to exhaustion. Please go out and actually sail a catamaran of any type so you at least have some baseline to talk from. Or at least look at some of them in person.

Again, reread my statement about PT Barnum and published displacements. Your unfamiliarity with these production cats shows when you think those published displacements in any way represent reality. Lagoon is probably the most honest, and those numbers are eye-popping.

As for sitting back and "running the numbers", you aren't getting real-life story. Take the V440 for instance. Here are two pictures of it under sail, along with a picture of its bridgedeck. Notice those many 10" vertical panels hanging down from the bridgedeck? Yes, those are vertical panels - go look at one and see for yourself.

Now ask yourself what happens when a boat with almost no vertical bridgedeck clearance and 10" vertical panels hanging down from it goes out for a sail. Run that through your "numbers" and justify its relative performance.

Now stop to consider that while numbers are a good baseline, they have to be accurate, they have to represent the boat being sailed in the condition it is being used, and they have to accommodate non-numerical data like design characteristics not held to numbers.

Or, just go out and actually sail these boats. You don't need them side by side simultaneously to draw some conclusions or understand what you are talking about.

Mark
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Old 10-05-2014, 12:30   #440
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
SNIP
OK all you folks that have sailing experience in light and fast multis like tomfl and others, your thoughts and ideas please.
I am not sure I would say my Seawind is light and fast, especially compared to some of the real performance cats. By the same token I would not consider it a condomaran.

My boat has a composting head and I am mostly a single hander which means it may be lighter than similar boats as I tend to travel light.

The rig is also a factor. I have a square top and a very recent screecher flying off a bow spirit that Mack Sails recut and did a nice job. It takes me a little time to trim the screecher, jib, main, and get the slots right and then get the traveler where I want it, often times with the assist of electronics. Many of the sorta condomarans are only using a single head sail and have a pin head instead of a square top. I also have two outboards that lift out of the water when sailing which reduces drag a boat with a shaft/prop has to deal with.

I got in trouble saying I will alter course five degrees or so when beating and one of the other cat owners said he would only change course two degrees. Not saying anything is in stone, but if I am in a seaway on a course that causes pounding I will change course till it goes away. I also tend to be a gentleman sailor who does not go out in heavy weather and waits for weather windows where I do not have to beat.

Back when I was board sailing and went to the Olympic Trials one of the female sailors use to shake her finger at me and say "Thomas, you must learn to play with the waves" (English was not her first language). That was her way of saying getting your boat to surf as much as possible increases the speed and not slamming into waves means you will not be putting on the breaks and slowing your boat down. I see a lot of sailors who fail to understand going down the face of a wave not only increases the boat's speed it also shifts the apparent wind forward. More importantly hitting a wave square on not only slows the boat down it also shifts the apparent wind aft. In both of these conditions you may need to alter the course almost constantly to keep up with other boats that are playing with the waves. Not only that playing with the waves also helps keep pounding to a minimum, sometimes even eliminating it.

Under some seaways it is possible to surf for considerable periods of time. It is important to learn just how well your boat surfs and how to keep it surfing as long as possible. Most boats are very comfortable when surfing and there is no pounding. As a rule bigger waves make surfing easier and often in these conditions there is a strong wind which lessens the increase in speed collapsing the sails. Another point is that a heavier boat will not accelerate as fast as a light boat down the face of the wave so the movement is usually more comfortable.

Here is an interesting vid that shows a ocean passage in a cat with more discussion on this topic

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Old 10-05-2014, 12:51   #441
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Well colemj you have asked for someone's reply that has experience sailing these boats so here I am. Have owned an owners version V440 for 4 years yet only sailed it down the Eastern Chain to Grenada over to Venezuela and Curacao then up to Jamaica, Caymans and now my boat is in the Bahamas on it's return trip to the East Coast. I come from a very strong monohull racing background and know how to trim sails and drive. My previous cruising boat was a Little Harbor 50 and I loved the boat but honestly wanted more room , more speed and a shallow draft.
My first choice in the cat world (for what I could afford) was a used Outremer 55 Light and I drooled over this boat but in reality I being over 6'4'' could not stand up in the main cabin. Therefore I reluctantly started sailing some of the other non daggerboard French and South African cats and always felt like I was driving a house. No feel on the helm, no performance in light air and when the wind did pick up they did not feel any different.
Almost purchased a Leopard 46 until I chartered a brand new one for a week along with a sailing buddy of mine who is in the business and has raced many ocean cats. To say the performance was disappointing in wind 8 to 30+ knots we experienced is to say the least.
Then I sailed a Voyage 440 and the feel of the helm sold me. Bought one and have never regretted it. Never have I been passed by ANY non daggerboard cat and ALWAYS seem to have an edge. In 8 knots of breeze we are sailing while other cats are motoring. And believe me I am ALWAYS racing even when I cruise! We do have a screecher, folding props, asym and sym kite however. Also we point up wind as well as my Little Harbor 50 did.
Would I prefer any other kind of cat? Sure and if I could ever afford it I would have an Atlantic 57 or an Outremer 5X or hell maybe even a large Tri.
So..........I feel you degradation of the V440 is uncalled for and based on very little knowledge.
Oh yea one more thing after falling off waves in monohulls for years a little wave slap to me is very tolerable.
If people don't like my boat then simply don't buy one but at least have the experience before you start bad mouthing other people boats.
I guess the other thing is that in the summers I am on many different performance monohulls and I love them too!
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Old 10-05-2014, 12:53   #442
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Another cat video for Weavis



Its a bit long, but the cat comes into view at about 1 minute
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Old 10-05-2014, 13:01   #443
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Thanks for that! I love helicopter rescue miles out to sea...

This one didnt even make it to the sea!

The boat is in view immediately........

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Old 10-05-2014, 13:03   #444
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

At least it was floating and did not sink to the bottom.
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Old 10-05-2014, 14:39   #445
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
I am not sure I would say my Seawind is light and fast, especially compared to some of the real performance cats. By the same token I would not consider it a condomaran.

My boat has a composting head and I am mostly a single hander which means it may be lighter than similar boats as I tend to travel light.

The rig is also a factor. I have a square top and a very recent screecher flying off a bow spirit that Mack Sails recut and did a nice job. It takes me a little time to trim the screecher, jib, main, and get the slots right and then get the traveler where I want it, often times with the assist of electronics. Many of the sorta condomarans are only using a single head sail and have a pin head instead of a square top. I also have two outboards that lift out of the water when sailing which reduces drag a boat with a shaft/prop has to deal with.

I got in trouble saying I will alter course five degrees or so when beating and one of the other cat owners said he would only change course two degrees. Not saying anything is in stone, but if I am in a seaway on a course that causes pounding I will change course till it goes away. I also tend to be a gentleman sailor who does not go out in heavy weather and waits for weather windows where I do not have to beat.

Back when I was board sailing and went to the Olympic Trials one of the female sailors use to shake her finger at me and say "Thomas, you must learn to play with the waves" (English was not her first language). That was her way of saying getting your boat to surf as much as possible increases the speed and not slamming into waves means you will not be putting on the breaks and slowing your boat down. I see a lot of sailors who fail to understand going down the face of a wave not only increases the boat's speed it also shifts the apparent wind forward. More importantly hitting a wave square on not only slows the boat down it also shifts the apparent wind aft. In both of these conditions you may need to alter the course almost constantly to keep up with other boats that are playing with the waves. Not only that playing with the waves also helps keep pounding to a minimum, sometimes even eliminating it.

Under some seaways it is possible to surf for considerable periods of time. It is important to learn just how well your boat surfs and how to keep it surfing as long as possible. Most boats are very comfortable when surfing and there is no pounding. As a rule bigger waves make surfing easier and often in these conditions there is a strong wind which lessens the increase in speed collapsing the sails. Another point is that a heavier boat will not accelerate as fast as a light boat down the face of the wave so the movement is usually more comfortable.

Here is an interesting vid that shows a ocean passage in a cat with more discussion on this topic

Thanks Tom for taking the time for posting this reply. My only experience on a fast and light multi was my brother's Corsair, and not that much time. No large wind driven waves to surf, so zero experience on that front.

I got the impression from the video you posted that the converted Formula 40 would be a tiring ride of acceleration and de-acceleration in wind driven large waves.

I have lately been basing my boat interests on what I've learned in 40 years of hot rods, less weight = more fun. When I came across that converted Formula 40, I thought it was the maritime equivalent to my 1790 lb Track-T. 43' and 2000 lbs less than a PDQ 36, that sure caught my attention.

Now I'm going to sound like Galaxy Girl, asking you and others that have experience with fly weight multis to give me comments on this boat that is on the hard in Thailand.

Thanks

Formula 40 Extended to 43" for sale, 13.11m, 1990 | BoatshedPhuket.com
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Old 10-05-2014, 17:03   #446
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by caradow View Post
Well colemj you have asked for someone's reply that has experience sailing these boats so here I am. Have owned an owners version V440 for 4 years yet only sailed it down the Eastern Chain to Grenada over to Venezuela and Curacao then up to Jamaica, Caymans and now my boat is in the Bahamas on it's return trip to the East Coast. I come from a very strong monohull racing background and know how to trim sails and drive. My previous cruising boat was a Little Harbor 50 and I loved the boat but honestly wanted more room , more speed and a shallow draft.
My first choice in the cat world (for what I could afford) was a used Outremer 55 Light and I drooled over this boat but in reality I being over 6'4'' could not stand up in the main cabin. Therefore I reluctantly started sailing some of the other non daggerboard French and South African cats and always felt like I was driving a house. No feel on the helm, no performance in light air and when the wind did pick up they did not feel any different.
Almost purchased a Leopard 46 until I chartered a brand new one for a week along with a sailing buddy of mine who is in the business and has raced many ocean cats. To say the performance was disappointing in wind 8 to 30+ knots we experienced is to say the least.
Then I sailed a Voyage 440 and the feel of the helm sold me. Bought one and have never regretted it. Never have I been passed by ANY non daggerboard cat and ALWAYS seem to have an edge. In 8 knots of breeze we are sailing while other cats are motoring. And believe me I am ALWAYS racing even when I cruise! We do have a screecher, folding props, asym and sym kite however. Also we point up wind as well as my Little Harbor 50 did.
Would I prefer any other kind of cat? Sure and if I could ever afford it I would have an Atlantic 57 or an Outremer 5X or hell maybe even a large Tri.
So..........I feel you degradation of the V440 is uncalled for and based on very little knowledge.
Oh yea one more thing after falling off waves in monohulls for years a little wave slap to me is very tolerable.
If people don't like my boat then simply don't buy one but at least have the experience before you start bad mouthing other people boats.
I guess the other thing is that in the summers I am on many different performance monohulls and I love them too!
My apologies - I wasn't trying to run down the V440, I was responding to another poster regarding some particulars about it being a performance catamaran, along with some other aspects of catamarans in general. It was being used as an example, not an exemplary. I think it is a good cruising boat and fits squarely in the large class of production cruising catamarans that are plying the worlds waters constantly without somehow falling apart, only running downwind and flipping over.

I have sailed and have experiences with this boat, thus I have my opinions about it. What is a "little wave slap" to you may be quite abnormal to me and, frankly, this boat is a slammer. But it isn't dangerous or any real problem, just one of those many characteristics of boats that vary among them in ways that require tradeoffs and decisions. To decrease bridgedeck noise, you would have a narrower beam and higher boat. Both of those have tradeoffs you may not like. I must say though, I never understood those vertical panels underneath the bridgedeck, nor what their function is.

I have yet to meet a catamaran owner whose boat doesn't beat all others except the high performance ones, and goes upwind as well as monos.

And I accept all you say, because you actually have much experience with this boat. More than me, and more than someone driving numbers without actually seeing one or stepping foot on one.

Believe me, I am much more inclusive about what makes a good, safe, valid ocean cruising catamaran than most of the people on this thread. Of course, your boat is well within that category, and pretty high in it to boot.

Mark
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Old 10-05-2014, 17:44   #447
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
My apologies - I wasn't trying to run down the V440, I was responding to another poster regarding some particulars about it being a performance catamaran, along with some other aspects of catamarans in general. It was being used as an example, not an exemplary. I think it is a good cruising boat and fits squarely in the large class of production cruising catamarans that are plying the worlds waters constantly without somehow falling apart, only running downwind and flipping over.


Mark
I thought it was a V440 which flipped off the coast of Oregon and killed the crew--or am I mistaken??
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Old 10-05-2014, 17:51   #448
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
What is called a performance boat varies with the intention: Racing, cruising/racing or just cruising. The voyage catamarans are long range cruising cats and in that respect they are performance cats and that's what their shipyard considers them:

"VOYAGE yachts, manufacturers of multiple award winning sailing catamarans, boasts its product range as luxurious, stylish, elegant and as performance cruising vessels. "

Being performance or not, like on monohulls, will result of a comparison of their performance with the one that is the typical on the main market cats and by far the most sold cruising cats, voyage or otherwise are the Lagoon, Fountain-Pajot, Leopard type.

Those cats for a 44 ft size have typically about 12000kgof weight and a sail area of about 86m2.

The boat that on Voyage yachts substituted the 440 weights 9200kg and has 105m2 of sail area.

In what regards performance sail area is not all, finesse is also very important and if we compare the beam (and finesse) of the Voyage 440 and a Lagoon 440 (or any similar boat among the best selling in this size) we can see a huge difference (the Lagoon 440 is the beamier one).





Yes I think that comparing the Voyage catamarans performance with the typical mass production cruising cats, the ones that overwhelmingly dominate the market, the shipyard can justifiably call it a performance cruiser.

You seem to consider performance cats the only ones that are suitable for racing and are used for racing and cruising, but today when we talk a bout a performance cruiser (in market terms) it does not mean that it is suitable for racing but that is a lot more fast than the average main market cruising boats of the same size and certainly the Voyage yachts are. There are many performance monohull cruisers that are not intended or designed for racing as there are on the same category of performance cruisers many multihulls.
Polux i guess you are somebody as I am researching cats with the view to purchase.

I have never heard anyone including owners ranking the Voyage range of cats as performance cruising cats.

Certainly they are in the list of vessels for consideration for a full time liveaboard cruising catamaran. Owners really seem to like them.

Just never anybody calling them performance.

At 44ft all the real performance cats will weigh in lightship at 4- 5000kg.

Seems to me they fit in a similar catagory to the similar sized production charter catamarans which they are designed as and by comparison have some advantages and some disadvantages.

Are they a vessel I could end up with. Possibly but not as a performance cat.

Cheers
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Old 10-05-2014, 18:01   #449
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Youtube, Gemini Crossing the Tasman, Its actually got 8 knots on the dial, Crappy seas,

Still a Pleasant ride tho, In About 3 metre waves,

I need 4 knots of wind to get mobile, Then I get 2 Knots, I am usually sailing two knots less than the wind,

Twelve knots of wind, I get 10 knots of speed. My speed is adjusted by the GPS,

A couple of points either way, I get the best speed at the time,

I am not a good sailor, I dont proffess to be a good sailor, I am not interested in Racing,

But I do know enough to get me where I want to go, Safely, Thats all thats required for me,

And my Little Cat does it perfectly, And it does it on the level, Hahahahaha.

If a Mono did what I wanted my boat to do, I would have had a Mono,

For a lot less money than I paid for my Cat, I wouldnt be Broke and on the Pension,
I would be sailing on a Mono with a pocket full of cash, And the easy life,

But sadly, A Mono wont do what I want it to do, I want to live full time on my Cat, In Very shallow water, And I dont want it to fall over when I am Parked,
And Parking my cat 2 miles from the beach is not on either, We have tides that do go out that far,
I bought my Cat for a specific reason, A Mono just wont do it,

As an aside to all this, My Vessel is the 825th one they made, From about 1200 all up, Then they changed the whole Design,
I would not sail the new Gemini 35 in big following seas, Mainly because of the Transom layout, Your gonna get your feet wet,
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Old 10-05-2014, 18:09   #450
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Same here.
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