Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-05-2014, 07:58   #421
Registered User
 
w32honu's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Boat: Custom Marples 40 FC
Posts: 432
Images: 2
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Speaking of repairs…….

Are haul out facilities an issue? Across the Pacific there are very few yards capable of hauling a large multi. Depending on your cruising plans….. Is that enough to persuade someone to consider a monohull?…….if not just for awhile.?????

As I understand it……even the eastern seaboard of the U.S. is a challenge, depending on your beam.
__________________

__________________
w32honu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 08:08   #422
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,085
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Plenty of Beaches
__________________

__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 08:21   #423
Registered User
 
w32honu's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Boat: Custom Marples 40 FC
Posts: 432
Images: 2
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Plenty of Beaches
I hear you…….

And I am all for it…..

Just sometimes the beach might not do.
__________________
w32honu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 08:29   #424
Registered User
 
tomfl's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 1,959
Images: 10
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by w32honu View Post
Speaking of repairs…….

Are haul out facilities an issue? Across the Pacific there are very few yards capable of hauling a large multi. Depending on your cruising plans….. Is that enough to persuade someone to consider a monohull?…….if not just for awhile.?????

As I understand it……even the eastern seaboard of the U.S. is a challenge, depending on your beam.
This is one of the biggest mistakes lots of folks make. So many people buy a boat with the idea of circumnavigation by rounding both of the great capes and winds up maybe going to the Keys or Bahamas in the winter and anchoring in Georgetown a month for every day spent sailing. Plenty of folks then pull their boat for the summer at a yard in Florida and spend the hot months in cooler climates.

Buying a boat based on available yards in the South Pacific that can haul it seems a little anal retentive to me.
__________________
tomfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 08:42   #425
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
What is called a performance boat varies with the intention: Racing, cruising/racing or just cruising. The voyage catamarans are long range cruising cats and in that respect they are performance cats and that's what their shipyard considers them:

"VOYAGE yachts, manufacturers of multiple award winning sailing catamarans, boasts its product range as luxurious, stylish, elegant and as performance cruising vessels. "

Being performance or not, like on monohulls, will result of a comparison of their performance with the one that is the typical on the main market cats and by far the most sold cruising cats, voyage or otherwise are the Lagoon, Fountain-Pajot, Leopard type.

Those cats for a 44 ft size have typically about 12000kgof weight and a sail area of about 86m2.

The boat that on Voyage yachts substituted the 440 weights 9200kg and has 105m2 of sail area.

In what regards performance sail area is not all, finesse is also very important and if we compare the beam (and finesse) of the Voyage 440 and a Lagoon 440 (or any similar boat among the best selling in this size) we can see a huge difference (the Lagoon 440 is the beamier one).





Yes I think that comparing the Voyage catamarans performance with the typical mass production cruising cats, the ones that overwhelmingly dominate the market, the shipyard can justifiably call it a performance cruiser.

You seem to consider performance cats the only ones that are suitable for racing and are used for racing and cruising, but today when we talk a bout a performance cruiser (in market terms) it does not mean that it is suitable for racing but that is a lot more fast than the average main market cruising boats of the same size and certainly the Voyage yachts are. There are many performance monohull cruisers that are not intended or designed for racing as there are on the same category of performance cruisers many multihulls.
Let me state up front that I have actually sailed these boats we are discussing. A disclaimer I would like to see from others who have such ingrained knowledge and opinions on them.

PT Barnum would love how the manufacturers list displacements on their boats and how the consumers eat it up.

He would also love how you label the V440 as a performance cruiser using the marketing description from their website as your sole "fact".

I don't understand your definition as any boat designed for long-range cruising being de facto a performance cruiser. The list of boats negating that reasoning is longer than the internet.

I promise you that the current line of FP and Leopard cats will out-perform the current line of Voyage cats. Don't believe me - just please go sail on them before making your claims. Yes, the current Lagoons are heavy slugs, but past models would at least match the V440 performance.

And if Baldwin thought that Dean rattled his teeth off, he has not experienced a V440 in rougher conditions. Even in calmer conditions those boats sound like bombs are going off under them. Friends of ours with one complain that their feet hurt from the pounding and they can't stand in the cockpit or saloon when going up wind.

I don't consider racing boats at all when considering "performance". While boats can certainly be raced, examples like 44CC's boat, the Catana 43/47, LeRouge's Brazappi and Freydis, Schionning's Waterline, White's Atlantics, Free Flow 46, etc are full-on cruising boats with quite a bit of performance.

Below this line are just cruising cats. I won't enter the debate about what constitutes a "condomaran" because I think that is derogative, uninformed and know from experience that these "condomarans" are at least keeping pace, and almost always out-performing, the main types of cruising monohulls out here - Formosa's and their copies, Liberties, Westsails, Tayanas, etc.

Once again I make this Quixotic plea - please actually have some experience or direct knowledge about these boats that one is speaking on with such expertise. Will anyone here step up and describe their experiences? I must be on ignore, because no one seems to pay any attention to this request and keep on like it has never been made.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 08:53   #426
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by w32honu View Post
Speaking of repairs…….

Are haul out facilities an issue? Across the Pacific there are very few yards capable of hauling a large multi. Depending on your cruising plans….. Is that enough to persuade someone to consider a monohull?…….if not just for awhile.?????

As I understand it……even the eastern seaboard of the U.S. is a challenge, depending on your beam.
Yes, haulout is a very real consideration when buying a catamaran. I personally would not count on a beach for much except emergency or very rapid, routine inspection/maintenance. First, many cats are not really made for beaching and the act of beaching one that is made for it is fraught with perils. Second, in many places, you will have difficulty finding a suitable beach or a tide that allows beaching. The entire Caribbean, for example.

However, we have never had a problem with haulouts. They do have to be planned - we can never just think "I want to haul out now" and then drive up to Billy-Bob's local dilapidated marina and haul.

Many, many places are building travelift or hydraulic trailer facilities that can handle large beam boats as fast as they can. Catamarans are extremely popular and their needs are being accommodated. For example, in the Rio Dulce Guatemala this year, there are now three facilities that can haul catamarans - two of them have no beam restrictions, while the other is only good for 23'. We have friends hauled out on the South Pacific, so facilities also exist there. It will soon be just a wive's tale that it is difficult to haul a catamaran. But it will never be generally such that Billy-Bob can handle you on a minute's notice. On the other hand, it will never be generally such that a monohull can just drive up on a beach.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 09:04   #427
Registered User
 
tomfl's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 1,959
Images: 10
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
SNIP

I won't enter the debate about what constitutes a "condomaran"

SNIP
I will.

Any cat less than sixty feet with four heads or more is a condomaran.

I live on a Seawind with a squaretop and screecher and out sail most of the boats in the harbor. Exceptions are Chris White cats, a St. Francis, some Shuttleworths, and of course the Fboats (but they don't count).

For you guys with lots of experience do you think a Lagoon, FP, whatever is more of a performance boat than say a Gemini or 8M Catalac, or even a larger Catalac.
__________________
tomfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 09:18   #428
Registered User
 
w32honu's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Boat: Custom Marples 40 FC
Posts: 432
Images: 2
Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
This is one of the biggest mistakes lots of folks make. So many people buy a boat with the idea of circumnavigation by rounding both of the great capes and winds up maybe going to the Keys or Bahamas in the winter and anchoring in Georgetown a month for every day spent sailing. Plenty of folks then pull their boat for the summer at a yard in Florida and spend the hot months in cooler climates.

Buying a boat based on available yards in the South Pacific that can haul it seems a little anal retentive to me.

Tom. Did not say that i was buying a boat. Already own a boat that i cruise far and wide. A mono. Also own a brand new set of plans for a Marples CC tri. So for me it will be a custom build.

Still does not negate the lack of good yards available for multis.

Cheers
__________________
w32honu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 09:55   #429
Registered User
 
tomfl's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 1,959
Images: 10
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by w32honu View Post
SNIP

Still does not negate the lack of good yards available for multis.

SNIP
My point was that there are a lot of places to haul multihulls in my part of the world. There are also lots of multihulls in my part of the world.

I ascribe this to what economists call the law of supply and demand. Places like Florida where there are lots of multihulls create a demand for yards that can haul multihulls and businessmen build those yards to meet the supply.

Places like the South Pacific with less demand have less supply.
__________________
tomfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 10:25   #430
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,198
Images: 4
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

I would like to learn from this thread. Posters like tomfl and others that have fast, light multis, what is your motion like in big seas?

I've only had one boat that I cruised, a Cal 40. Before I purchased it I had what I thought knowledgeable folks tell me that old race boats wouldn't make a good cruiser. I'm glad they were wrong.

If I return to cruising at a later date, I'm considering a race multi converted to a cruiser since the Cal 40 made such a good (but spartan) cruiser.

There is a Formula 40 cat that has been converted to a fast cruiser. 3' was added to her waterline to accommodate the added weight of a bridge structure. Even so it is still a flyweight at 3000 kg @ 43'. Hull efficiency is such that max motoring speed is 10.5 kt using a pair of 9.9 hp outboards. Design and build was by Adrian Tompson and first owner was Francis Joyon.

OK all you folks that have sailing experience in light and fast multis like tomfl and others, your thoughts and ideas please.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	autoimage-124640_BoatPic_UnderwaterProfile.jpg
Views:	56
Size:	69.9 KB
ID:	80821  
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 10:28   #431
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tampa Florida
Boat: R.WOODS 36ft CATAMARAN
Posts: 505
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by w32honu View Post
Speaking of repairs…….

Are haul out facilities an issue? Across the Pacific there are very few yards capable of hauling a large multi. Depending on your cruising plans….. Is that enough to persuade someone to consider a monohull?…….if not just for awhile.?????

As I understand it……even the eastern seaboard of the U.S. is a challenge, depending on your beam.
Huge issue-add docks to that.
__________________
georgetheleo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 10:34   #432
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Lets discuss the TRUTH:

There are only 261 Cats for sale on YW today in the USA
There are 7,964 sailing craft.
That leaves 7,964 - 261 = 7,703 other choices.

There are only 32 cats under 100,000 $

The question isn't returning, its entering.
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 10:51   #433
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Lets discuss the TRUTH:

There are only 261 Cats for sale on YW today in the USA
There are 7,964 sailing craft.
That leaves 7,964 - 261 = 7,703 other choices.

There are only 32 cats under 100,000 $

The question isn't returning, its entering.

Since the topic is multihulls, there are 392 multihulls for sale in the states. And I don't think the thread is location restricted to the US?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 10:56   #434
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Let me state up front that I have actually sailed these boats we are discussing. A disclaimer I would like to see from others who have such ingrained knowledge and opinions on them.



PT Barnum would love how the manufacturers list displacements on their boats and how the consumers eat it up.



He would also love how you label the V440 as a performance cruiser using the marketing description from their website as your sole "fact".



I don't understand your definition as any boat designed for long-range cruising being de facto a performance cruiser. The list of boats negating that reasoning is longer than the internet.



I promise you that the current line of FP and Leopard cats will out-perform the current line of Voyage cats. Don't believe me - just please go sail on them before making your claims. Yes, the current Lagoons are heavy slugs, but past models would at least match the V440 performance.



And if Baldwin thought that Dean rattled his teeth off, he has not experienced a V440 in rougher conditions. Even in calmer conditions those boats sound like bombs are going off under them. Friends of ours with one complain that their feet hurt from the pounding and they can't stand in the cockpit or saloon when going up wind.



I don't consider racing boats at all when considering "performance". While boats can certainly be raced, examples like 44CC's boat, the Catana 43/47, LeRouge's Brazappi and Freydis, Schionning's Waterline, White's Atlantics, Free Flow 46, etc are full-on cruising boats with quite a bit of performance.



Below this line are just cruising cats. I won't enter the debate about what constitutes a "condomaran" because I think that is derogative, uninformed and know from experience that these "condomarans" are at least keeping pace, and almost always out-performing, the main types of cruising monohulls out here - Formosa's and their copies, Liberties, Westsails, Tayanas, etc.



Once again I make this Quixotic plea - please actually have some experience or direct knowledge about these boats that one is speaking on with such expertise. Will anyone here step up and describe their experiences? I must be on ignore, because no one seems to pay any attention to this request and keep on like it has never been made.



Mark

The length of waterline to beam ratio of 8.71 for the Voyage 440 tells me it's no performance cat.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2014, 11:01   #435
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

the USA I use as a sample of logistics. If I'm looking for a used boat, I'm not flying to 50,000 miles to look for one. I'm looking in a house near me. So, obviously, I have many more choices in other boats.

btw those < 100000 cats looked like junk.

I don't count the tris:
93
71 < 100,000 $

since the focus tended to turn into cats on this thread.

sad aint it?
__________________

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hull, multihull

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I have heard of people going back and forth from USA to MX and back and no a Passport shorebird2 The Sailor's Confessional 33 02-06-2014 05:29
Multihullers, Tell Us What You Like About Monohulls Southern Star Monohull Sailboats 92 19-12-2011 13:58
ANybody ever send an inverter/charger back for rebuild repair? Chief Engineer Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 17 22-02-2008 15:57
Bahamas Is Still There and Nicer than Ever CSY Man General Sailing Forum 20 22-07-2004 09:31



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.