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Old 07-05-2014, 10:31   #196
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

caradow I like that!
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Old 07-05-2014, 10:34   #197
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Examples, pretty please?
That is so evident that it seems you don't know much about cats. The most sold are probably the Lagoon, followed by Fountain Pajot. On the last years we have seen a big increase of Leopards, built by moorings by Robertson and Caine for Moorings for charter work. The condo type is the one used for charter.

Lagoon catamarans : building, sale and chartering of luxury cruising catamarans

Catamarans Fountaine Pajot

Robertson and Caine | Leopard 44

Bareboat Charter Yachts | The Moorings

An easy way to see if a cat is fast is too look if it has Dagerboards or not, also if the hulls are narrow or fat and also to the weight. A fast cat of the same type can weight as 30 or 40% less than a Lagoon. Most are fat and as I said the condo type is the one that is sold in greater numbers. From the ones that can be considered already as fast sailing boats the more popular are Catana, even if not among the fastest:

Catana

Generally speaking cruising trimarans are faster than cats but with the exception of the Neel they offer very little space. The Neel having as much space as a condo cat is faster than most even if they exaggerate in what they say regarding performance. I tried that Sailing side by side with a Salona 41 with weak wind and the Salona was way faster.

NEEL trimarans

Most really fast cat are bigger than 45ft because a small fast (light) cat with lots of sail can be tricky to sail and demand a very experienced sailor. You have some on the market but they are pretty marginal as well as the fast trimarans used as cruising boats. This ones have an advantage in what regards small fast cats: They are less trickier to sail and more forgiving.
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Old 07-05-2014, 10:52   #198
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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That is so evident that it seems you don't know much about cats.
I don't since I can't afford em

But, I'm very aware of Leopard, FP, Lag-hhoooons, Antares but I consider them FAT CONDO CATS.

I am NOT aware of what the FAST cats are, or how to consider those brands.

Fast I always associated to tri's.
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Old 07-05-2014, 10:58   #199
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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...

Second, to make it more clear...go find a monohull and a catamaran. Disconnect all the through hull fitting hoses below the waterline. Check on them them the next day and then tell us what you found.
I see, and that makes them "lighter than the water they displace"
Their weight is equal to the water they displace and that is why we talk about a boat displacement referring to the weight.

I believe that to be RCD certified all multihulls have to be unsinkable to compensate the absence of re-righting possibility. There are very few that are unsinkable because their overall density is smaller then the one of the water (only very light performance multihulls have that characteristic), the others have sealed compartments that provide the extra buoyancy needed for that.

There are some cruising monohulls that join the re-righting ability to the unsinkability but due to the extra weight of the ballast the sealed compartments have to be considerably bigger.
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Old 07-05-2014, 10:59   #200
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

After forty odd years on Mono, fishing, ski, speed, cabin cruisers, Etc, up to 30 feet,

and sailing my over powered Paper Tiger for 3 years, That taught me about the wind, Quick learning experience, But Fun, It cart wheels easy with only one Bum on Board, Hahahaha

My motor boats went where I pointed them, Too slow, Chuck in a bigger motor, Simple,

But I didnt buy my 34 foot Gemini for speed, I bought it because its always flat and level, and it costs bugger all to live on,
It will be all on the Hook, No Marina's for me, Here, I can park on the beach beside the Road, walk across the road to get fuel and supplies from Servo's and Supermarkets,

I bought it to sail in the conditions We get here in Southern OZ, It Can be very severe, Instantly,

and the conditions we get across the north of Australia, The tide goes out 2 miles up there, 3 metre tides,
I want to be parked on the sandy beach or in very shallow water, Away from the Crocs in the shallow water,

I have a Draught of 2 feet, So I can sneak up the creeks and rivers, Where I want to go,

I want to live on it full time for at least a year, Maybe two or three, That includes a circumnavigation of Australia, Anti clockwise, I am Retired, and its about 12,000 miles around,
That to me is coastal cruising,

I could not afford to buy a Cat in OZ and still Retire, They are double the price of overseas to here,

I had no intention of crossing Oceans in my new Boat, Its just the way it worked out,
So I had to buy one from overseas, The shipping by ship, the cost was out of reach for me,

So it was down to hire a captain and or, sail it home myself, Depending on my Confidence and

Competence in my own Ability to Navigate and Sail it home, Safely, Thats me, Not you or what you think,

USA was out of the question to sail it home for me, Thats just too far, Even for me,

I had narrowed the field down to two suitable Cats, One in San Diego, and one in Fiji, Fiji's not far, I could do that with some instruction and teaching, and a fair bit of practice,

I am the BUYER, I want everything on the boat and for FREE, Or next to nothing,

The Seller might have a different opinion, Stiff Cheddar, My China Plate, Take it or leave it, You want the CASH or not,

After about two years of research, The Gemini in Fiji was the one I bought, After a Full Haul out survey at my cost, It had all the Bells and Whistles and a cheap price, And everything worked,

Mine was one of the first Gemini's that had the heavy wood work removed after the Builder crossed the north Atlantic in one for a delivery,,
If this Catamaran can cross the northern Atlantic, It can handle the Oceans we get down here,

Its only 14 feet wide, So I can park it in a normal wet berth if I have too, Same price as a Mono,

Would a Mono do what I want my Cat to do, No way, A Mono doesnt and cant even enter my picture,

They have made approx 1200 Gemini's, only a couple have sunk, Mainly Stupidity, Hahahahaha, Rolling them over sideways, Nearly done it myself,

In approx 3000 miles, I have never felt unsafe in my Gemini Catamaran, Its everything I wanted it to be,
And more, Totally Seaworthy,
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:16   #201
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I don't since I can't afford em

But, I'm very aware of Leopard, FP, Lag-hhoooons, Antares but I consider them FAT CONDO CATS.

I am NOT aware of what the FAST cats are, or how to consider those brands.

Fast I always associated to tri's.
Most of the time if it looks fast it is fast. Here have a look at some of the few relatively small fast cruising ones:

Interesting Sailboats: SCHIONNING CATS - THE ARROW 1200
Interesting Sailboats: TS 42 CAT
Interesting Sailboats: COMET and the CATS ( 37 and 62)
Interesting Sailboats: COMET 37 CAT

If you see a cat that is sleek, has low windage and curved surfaces (to diminish windage) than it is almost for sure a fast one because all those features take away interior space and the only reason one would design a cruising boat with less interior space (if he can have more) is for performance reasons
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:22   #202
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

There is white knuckle fast and easy, laid back fast. For cruising, the laid back fast is the way to go. Below is a description of a multihull that is laid back fast. I will block out the make and model of the boat in its performance description to see how long it takes for folks to figure out what it is..............

Sailing performance is extraordinary by any standard. She can lope along at an easy 20 knots with mainsail and jib alone. I have seen extended periods of STEADY 19 to 20 knots of boat speed with a single reefed main and full jib beam reaching in approximately 20 knots of wind. Steering under these conditions was a one handed affair. At high speed the helm is easy and balanced with absolutely no feeling of loosing control or of impending broach. Stronger winds can yield higher speeds, I feel that ******** is capable of sailing at 24 to 25 knots without surfing and without a spinnaker. There is not a single production cruising catamaran or trimaran that can approach this level of performance. I know they make grandiose claims but I have sailed on many and raced against others. The claims are, for the most part, hyperbole and in some cases downright fraudulent. ******** will easily out sail them all, in any conditions.

*******'s windward ability, something which is completely overlooked in many production multihulls, is astounding! With her centerboard down draft of 9' she has the ability to drive to windward like a freight train. In moderate conditions she will tack inside of 80 degrees making 8 to 10 knots through the water. As wind speed increases the fastest way to windward is to open up the tacking angle slightly to build more speed- which offsets the greater distance. Boat speeds of 11 to 12 knots hard on the wind can be achieved with proper sail trim. All of this with a masthead height under 65' so that ******** will clear the numerous fixed bridges on the eastern U.S. and gulf coasts allowing unimpeded travel through most of the Intracoastal Waterway and other important harbors.

In ocean conditions her motion through the water is extremely comfortable. The narrow forebody can slice through waves at high speed without the slightest amount of pounding. Downwind she is steady as a rock with minimal roll and yaw.

Single and short handing is easy with this *******. All sail controls are lead to the secure midship cockpit. ********, on her first single handed passage, averaged 235 miles per day while sailing conservatively from the Chesapeake Bay to Bermuda.

Accomodation

Normally, to achieve *******'s level of performance the accommodation plan is the first to suffer. Not so with *******. She incorporates a very comfortable tri-cabin layout that provides a large galley and saloon with a fantastic view, a double cabin forward with it's own spacious head and shower. Aft, a completely private double cabin with ample stowage and ensuite head and shower provides the space and privacy normally associated only with large catamarans.

If you need extra beds, within the main saloon there are 2 seats that easily convert to single berths, or 1 single and one double; as many as 7 can be accommodated overnight.

Shoal Draft

Twenty nine inches, less than 2 1/2 feet of water is all it takes to float *******! With a pivoting centerboard and a retracting rudder the shallow draft of the hull can be fully exploited. Vast areas of the Bahamas become "cruisable", secure hurricane holes become easy to find, over-crowded anchorages can be left behind for secluded coves inaccessible to most boats.

The pivoting centerboard is contained in a trunk located beneath the cabin sole and is completely out of the way. The board itself is positively buoyant so that it floats upward into the trunk if the pull down control is released. Up and down controls are led to a simple self tailing sheet winch in the cockpit. The centerboard can be positioned to either side of full down position in order to balance the boat under any sail combination. Careful design of the centerboard trunk and exit slot ensures that the board is quiet under all conditions. Except for the way ********* tracks to windward you will never know the board is there.

In order to make sallow draft practical the rudder must also retract. Many schemes for rudder retraction fall short of ideal. Just the opposite is true with ********. Her rudder will retract automatically upon impact with the bottom or any submerged object thereby preventing rudder damage. In addition the rudder can be steered during all phases of retraction, this allows the rudder to be retracted to the draft of the hull and still be functional. ******** can be sailed or motored in 2.5' of depth!

Turbo-Diesel Power

When the wind quits a 62 horsepower Yanmar turbo charged diesel engine takes up the slack. With a power cruise speed of 10 knots you will cover ground at a rapid pace.

Sailing to windward in very strong winds under a combination of deeply reefed sails and engine is a pleasant, and awe inspiring experience. Motor sailing to windward at 11 knots with 45 knots of apparent wind over the deck is unforgettable and a genuine display of the vast capabilities and versatility of this design.

******* Makes History

If there is another boat that offers better performance, comfort, seaworthiness and versatility I have never seen or heard of it. She is truly a "breakthrough" boat that will compare well with any boat from any designer at any price.


My guess is the knowledgable folks here at CF will know which boat ****** is in short order. To help the guessers, a ******** was on the market on the West Coast for around $250K and sold quickly.
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:42   #203
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
There is not a single production cruising catamaran or trimaran that can approach this level of performance.....
You are surely talking about this one: on the first test sail the boat nearly touched 35K speed.
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:42   #204
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
There is white knuckle fast and easy, laid back fast. For cruising, the laid back fast is the way to go. Below is a description of a multihull that is laid back fast. I will block out the make and model of the boat in its performance description to see how long it takes for folks to figure out what it is...............


My guess is the knowledgable folks here at CF will know which boat ****** is in short order.
Well yes.
Its not a catamaran either. I was reading this earlier strangely enough.

And I do think, we need to get back to REASONABLE priced Multihulls vs Cats in our discussions simply because this is discussing vessels WAY above the average persons payscale.

I cant afford a $500K Cat or boat unless I sell up real estate. Im pretty sure MOST people cant lay their hands on 200K CASH either without liquidating something...... so we need to define a parameter for price.

If I had an Outremer or Gunboat, I dont just have a Catamaran.....I would have the latest technology and vessel design available that is encompassed in a Catamaran, and for that reason is faster than most other things as a liveaboard or even as a sailing vessel.

There is also another disadvantage which has been mentioned in purchasing a Cat, and that is the cost is triple or quadruple for a similar quality Monohull.

Im not seeing that a quantifiying answer about Cats vs Monohulls can be made on anything except in the individual REASON/s a person buys a Catamaran as opposed to a Monohull.

Ill go first.
I would buy a Cat for:
  • Stability at anchor.
  • Width
  • Privacy and space.
  • No keeling
  • No stepping down into Saloon.
  • and finally....... I think they look $%#$@ Cool.
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:47   #205
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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You are surely talking about this one: on the first test sail the boat nearly touched 35K speed.
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Nice guess, but would it sell for $250K on the used market as ******* did?
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:57   #206
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Nice guess, but would it sell for $250K on the used market as ******* did?
Now but in what should I believe that it sells for $250K or that "There is not a single production cruising catamaran or trimaran that can approach this level of performance" they seem contradictory to me.

I just hate when someone (not you) is exaggerating their claims to the point of ridiculousness. I just posted the fastest 60ft production boat I know (it is not a one off).
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Old 07-05-2014, 12:01   #207
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Now but in what should I believe that it sells for $250K or that "There is not a single production cruising catamaran or trimaran that can approach this level of performance" they seem contradictory to me.

I just hate when someone (not you) is exaggerating their claims to the point of ridiculousness. I just posted the fastest 60ft production boat I know (it is not a one off).
http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/trimarans/hammerhead_54/
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Old 07-05-2014, 12:04   #208
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Now but in what should I believe that it sells for $250K or that "There is not a single production cruising catamaran or trimaran that can approach this level of performance" they seem contradictory to me.

I just hate when someone (not you) is exaggerating their claims to the point of ridiculousness. I just posted the fastest 60ft production boat I know (it is not a one off).
****** isn't a one off either and I hope I'm lucky enough to be in a position to buy the next one that hits the market.
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Old 07-05-2014, 12:05   #209
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

And we have a winner!!! Like I said, it wouldn't take long for the CF gang to figure this one out. Congrats weavis.
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Old 07-05-2014, 12:08   #210
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Re: Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

Now it's turning into a biggest swinging ___ thread.

This one clocked over 20knots regularly, with my 10 year old for crew. About $15K. The engine is not running; we lowered it for drag as my daughter was taking pictures for a sale ad, and in 5 knots she was reaching at ~ 8 knots. Fast on very few dollars. Can you buy a cheaper 27' mono of the same age (1981)? Sure. And when the breeze is up this will sail 1.5 to 2x the speed. Period. We sailed around monos like they were fixed points, perhaps anchored but dragging. She motors 12knots.

Are there equivalent monohulls? Sure, but they don't have a refrigerator and queen berths either.




Cruising boat? We spent weeks on her, cruising far.





Is my current boat that fast? Not at all, yet I can keep up with any similarly loaded cruising mono that isn't at least 6 feet longer, 8-10 feet off the wind. I have tweaked her a bit above and below, and I do know how to sail. I'm sure there are some racing skippers that can do better, closing the gap, but they will still some water line advantage. But I miss my Stiletto.
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