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Old 12-12-2011, 10:04   #106
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Well, to really have the seaworthiness of a true purposely built bluewater boat, a cat has to be much bigger and therefore much more expensive. That would not be a problem for some but it is for me, as well as the prices and availability of places in the marinas. But give me an Outremer 49 for the price of a First 40 and I will be happy.
While I did elude to cats, my main intention was mono design. Lots of good blue water mono designs that don't follow the slow, heavy, narrow, cramped, dark, cave school of thought of the "old masters". Dashew, Pedrick, Ellis, Farr, etc.

And I think you are going down a rat hole with "seaworthiness of a true purposely built bluewater boat" without specifically identifying those qualities (which, if you did, would really spin up this group!). Prices of cats and monos with those (undefined) qualities overlap significantly. In fact, length for length there are fewer non-BW cats models out there than non-BW mono models. Or are you suggesting that BW capable cats only start above 60'?

Asking for an Outremer 49 for the price of a First 40 is the same as asking for a Wally 60 - it isn't a catamaran/mono thing - just a price/quality thing.

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Old 12-12-2011, 10:09   #107
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Vacum infusion was developed on racing boats many years ago (40 years ago or more).

About Kevlar reinforcements I don't know but Bavaria uses them at least for 10 years. I don't know when they start to use them.
Catana has built whole boats with Kevlar skins for 30 years.

Wasn't TPI the first production company to use vacuum infusion back in the 80's?

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Old 12-12-2011, 10:14   #108
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
...

BTW, failure of the Bavaria KEEL is the old topic, not the rudder. To my knowledge, this is the only rudder failure and it is only known of by a few people (it was my friend's boat).

Mark
And how many keels do you know that have fell down:1 (one) and on a line of boats that had nothing to do with a cruising line, the Match line, fast cruiser racers.

They had problems only with one model of that line, the Bavaria Match 42 and in my opinion it was more a problem of design and not a building problem (all the Match 42 were reinforced, even the existing ones).

A short time later Bavaria finished with the Match line (cruises racers) concentrated on cruising boats and contrary to all other mass production brands, using the same techniques, increased substantially the weight of its boats.

Bavaria builds about 2000 boats a year and that's the only problem with a keel. Do you think it makes any sense to talk about Bavarias having problems with their keels
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:25   #109
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Or are you suggesting that BW capable cats only start above 60'?

.Mark
No but I would go bluewater in a 22ft mini but certainly not on a 22ft cat.

I like cats ans specially trimarans that I find more predictable and safer than same sized cats but it is an evidence that compared with a multihull, size for size, price for price you can have a smaller and cheaper monhull boat with bluewater capability and not by a small difference
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:42   #110
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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And how many keels do you know that have fell down:1 (one) and on a line of boats that had nothing to do with a cruising line, the Match line, fast cruiser racers.

They had problems only with one model of that line, the Bavaria Match 42 and in my opinion it was more a problem of design and not a building problem (all the Match 42 were reinforced, even the existing ones).

A short time later Bavaria finished with the Match line (cruises racers) concentrated on cruising boats and contrary to all other mass production brands, using the same techniques, increased substantially the weight of its boats.

Bavaria builds about 2000 boats a year and that's the only problem with a keel. Do you think it makes any sense to talk about Bavarias having problems with their keels
This is getting complicated.

I didn't talk about problems with their keel - I was correcting an earlier posting about me dredging up an old problem, and I merely pointed out that I was discussing a rudder, and not a keel (which was the old problem).

And it looks like I haven't made myself any clearer after three attempts here: I AM NOT disparaging Bavaria. My point was simply that even GOOD boats can have random design or build problems (actually the point was ANY boat). I posted the rudder picture to illustrate that point. And to my knowledge, that was the only rudder problem Bavaria had - WHICH IS MY WHOLE POINT!

Regarding increasing the weight of their boats - I hope they are increasing the keel weight and simply not piling in the glass and resin all over. Light builds, done right, are highly superior to slathering on matte and resin. And I am assuming you are discussing their design/build weight and not weight added with washer/driers, TV's, etc. There are a lot of bad ways to add weight, and only one good way (for a mono - there is no good way for a multi).

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Old 12-12-2011, 10:52   #111
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
it is an evidence that compared with a multihull, size for size, price for price you can have a smaller and cheaper monhull boat with bluewater capability and not by a small difference
That is true in a narrow absolute way, but not generally. Like I said, there is a vast overlap of prices in BW cats and monos.

And BW monos have a vaster range of definition than BW cats. You probably won't find too much debate over what makes a BW cat, but the same debate on monos goes on forever. So one may (for example) define an inexpensive 32' home made steel boat as BW based on having a full keel and narrow beam, while others may see it as a deathtrap.

But you will find the prices of common 38-45' cats like Manta, Privilege, etc to be the same or less expensive than equivalent length and age monos such as Island Packet, Pacific Seacraft, Valient, etc.

And yes, you will be able to find quality monos below the prices of cats because there are smaller monos and there are older ones, and there are a lot more of both.

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Old 12-12-2011, 10:56   #112
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Wasn't TPI the first production company to use vacuum infusion back in the 80's?

Mark
No on the 70's several small production builders of fast cruiser racers used already it and probably high-tech racing boats used it even earlier.
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:58   #113
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

I think that questions of build quality in any make or model of boat are best asked of a surveyor you trust in confidence where no one else can hear you. Boats are sensitive topics, and even when someone points out a real flaw that everyone should agree on someone is bound to be defensive and say something like "but the cockpit is better because" completely sidelining the initial criticism. No one likes to see their baby bashed. You can take just about any boat anywhere, but before you do, research what things you are willing to live with and what things you are not. Get a solid survey of any boat you are looking at and hire a surveyor with offshore experience. When you guys are surveying the boat tell him what you want to do with it, and ask him what problems he sees with the particular boat and your plans. A sketchy mast step or undersized rigging won't matter if you are staying close to home, but might be a real deal killer if you want to go further. It is worth looking at Catalinas if you are considering a Hunter. Look at Catalina's, older Island Packets, Benetaus, etc. depending on your price range, open up your search, and if you feel comfortable buying a Hunter after your search, go for it. Go walk around a dozen boats with a guy who works on boats and ask him for the pros and cons in construction of each. You will get a much different perspective than you will here on a forum. Asking if Hunters are good boats is like asking if Chevy builds good cars. There are some good and some bad. There are some chevy's with 4WD that can tow, and some cars with electric engines that have limited range and cannot tow. If you want to buy a car to tow with, make sure it can tow (don't buy a chevy volt). If you want to buy a Hunter to cross oceans, don't buy a Hunter 17, and if you aren't comfortable deciding what makes a boat bluewater for yourself (and it is a personal decision), then you need to do more research on what makes a boat seaworthy in general. As mentioned previously. The Hunter owners are a defensive bunch (likely because they are piled on so often), and there are a lot of them on CF. They take defensiveness to the point of trashing other people's decisions about boats, which isn't really fair. No wonder these threads turn into pissing contests!
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:04   #114
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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I didn't talk about problems with their keel - I was correcting an earlier posting about me dredging up an old problem, and I merely pointed out that I was discussing a rudder, and not a keel (which was the old problem).
I am old enough (just!) to remember the kerfuflle over the Rudders on a run of........Moodys. Nowadays considered as one of the "quality" boats from the 70's / 80's (was marketed to the nouveau Middle Classes - now too posh for a Westerly ).

Can't recall the details, but I don't think it was a falling off problem - more about delamination on boats that were none too old.

The more things change, the more they stay the same
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:11   #115
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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This is getting complicated.

...

And it looks like I haven't made myself any clearer after three attempts here: I AM NOT disparaging Bavaria. My point was simply that even GOOD boats can have random design or build problems (actually the point was ANY boat). I posted the rudder picture to illustrate that point. And to my knowledge, that was the only rudder problem Bavaria had - WHICH IS MY WHOLE POINT!
Alright!

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post

Regarding increasing the weight of their boats - I hope they are increasing the keel weight and simply not piling in the glass and resin all over. Light builds, done right, are highly superior to slathering on matte and resin. And I am assuming you are discussing their design/build weight and not weight added with washer/driers, TV's, etc. There are a lot of bad ways to add weight, and only one good way (for a mono - there is no good way for a multi).
Mark
Mark, I don't like heavy boats but the boats have to be strong and stiff enough and that requires weight, the one that is necessary for the material needed to do the job with a large security margin.

Regarding the Bavaria 36 I guess you didn't read all I have posted or what is said in that movie. The one that required that weight on that boat was Bruce Farr, not Bavaria. Bavaria built according to the specs.

I am sure that you don't see a designer like Farr "pilling in the glass all over". The weigh went for structural longitudinal beams and stronger bulkheads that make the boat incomparably stiffer. The testers says that the boat is faster than the previous lighter model but I guess that they referring to medium to high winds.

Manuel
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:20   #116
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Anchored in Barra de Navidad last year,when the wind came up the Hunter Passage 42? next to me would swing around and sheer back and forth like a wild bull.The guy kept dragging anchor as well.Huge windage on that boat.
Many boats do this. My CS36M does so do Saga 43's so it's not a function of being a production boat or windage, it's design and balance. As far as dragging anchor that's entirely up to the skipper. Worst case I saw of dragging was an inexperienced cruiser in a Tayana 42. Drug onto my buddy who was anchored astern of him and yelled that it was my buddy who was dragging.


The next morning we heard a friend of the Tayanas telling him to check his anchor alarm by motoring with it on when they left the anchorage. The Tayana's question " Do I leave the anchor down?" This was heard by all on the vhf. True story but very hard to believe.
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:58   #117
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

Not hard to believe at all. It's the basis for calling for mandatory licencing of skippers based on on-the-water testing. You and I both know the PCOC here in Canada is a joke, but at least it's an improvement in that half-cut morons in boats they can't handle now can tell a nav aid from a wizard's hat.

Not going to comment on the Hunter issue directly because irrespective of my general impressions, there are great skippers doing great voyages on some of the bigger models. To speak ill of a skipper taking a Hunter 49 through Patagonian channels would be insulting and idiotic. See Sequitur Home for plenty of hard-core, remote and autonomous sailing tales. Proof and pudding.

But is that a tribute to the quality of Hunter's larger designs and their suitability to offshore passagemaking, or is it rather a tribute to the experience of a good sailor who can get the most out of any design?

I can't say that as I've rarely sailed on a Hunter and certainly in nothing but unchallenging conditions.

I have seen them sailed, however, and sometimes I wonder if they are attractive to the less-experienced sailor. A "starter" boat, perhaps, geared to pleasant afternoons aboard in sunshine and a fair breeze. Certainly the older Cherubini designs seem sound. The current sub-40 models seem a bit top-heavy to me, by contrast. One can't argue with Hunter's popularity. They've replaced Catalina as the Honda Civics of recreational boating.

I did like the HC50, but I'm a sucker for vast boats with seven foot tillers!

Conclusion: The boat that brings you home is the right boat, but only you can be the right skipper for that boat.
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:46   #118
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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I am old enough (just!) to remember the kerfuflle over the Rudders on a run of........Moodys. Nowadays considered as one of the "quality" boats from the 70's / 80's (was marketed to the nouveau Middle Classes - now too posh for a Westerly )
Yes. And there was a time the best boat bashing was reserved for Morgans. And before that everyone was convinced that you'd die if you went to sea in a Kettenberg.

The biggest sin, it would seem, is producing an affordable boat.
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Old 12-12-2011, 13:46   #119
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

A lot of pages and not many answers.

I have a fraction share of a 2005 Hunter 33. What concerns me most about it's rough water capability is it's hull shape. It does appear to pound much more than older narrower boats. I would be worried about the stresses this would put on the rig after awhile.

Other than that, it appears to be well built. This particular boat is in the water for 6 months each season and get's sailed pretty much every day. It's probably the busiest sailboat on Lake Ontario. In and out of it's slip twice a day when the weather is good, (fraction time is broken up into 2 slots per day). It's been out in gales. Crossed the lake more than anyone knows, been run aground by yours truly and, generally seen more use than a charter boat. To this day, it looks almost new. It has had things break, but most of the issues have been related to parts unrelated to Hunter.

No ports leak, no rigging has broken, no rudders have fallen off. The doors to the cabins all shut properly.

And chicks dig it.

Next year it will be put up for sale for about $100,000. That's a pretty good retention of value in my eyes.

But I don't think I would want to sail it on an ocean passage, strictly because of damage the hull shape may cause in sustained rough condition of 2 or 3 days.
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Old 12-12-2011, 14:17   #120
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Hi Frank,

No. The kind of mass production cruisers like Hunters, Benetaus and the like have sufficient final safety and a sufficient AVS but not really a very good one. The boat will rise after a knock down, but I would not want to make that righting force at 90 even worse adding weight up on the mast were it counts for 5 or 6 times more.

That is also my objection to a furling main (besides the rare but nasty possibility of jamming): When in bad weather, when that final (reserve, safety) stability is more needed and you have almost all the main furled, you don't want to diminish even more that safety stability with the weight of the sail all up on the mast.

Cheers

Manuel
At one point in my life i owned a Caper Cat it was a great little 14foot catamaran that had a bouyancy float at masthead, sounds like that idea might be good for those boats if the scanner was inside it ROFLMAO :-)
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