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Old 17-12-2011, 21:11   #211
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Past experience... I have seen myself and one other boat (which was steel but sure enough was filled with water) do it, while a hundred or so declared me insane to drill a hole in the rudder. So I'll take the bet based on those odds

Oh.. The water comes in where the shaft meets the rudder. Fully metal and fully fiberglass constructions can be watertight, but metal shaft with fiberglass rudder... I think my 50% number will be low.

My rudder had grounding damage when I bought the boat. Dried it out using shop vac and heat for days. Drilled the hole 2 years later and dry as a bone. But my ruddershaft is fiberglass.

cheers,
Nick.

OK. The actual rust was several inches below where the shaft went into the rudder, and the rust was *inside* the shaft. The outside of the shaft looked fine. So it still doesn't quite make sense to me.

I have been *told* that lifelines can rust from the inside out. But the source for that statement is questionable.
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Old 17-12-2011, 21:36   #212
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

Lifelines cannot be vinyl coated under offshore racing rules precisely because they will rust from the inside. I had one go on me whilst doing foredeck halfway to the Philippines - not nice.

A lot of stainless steel can rust in the absence of air. Oxidized stainless steel protects itself, but covering it doesn't let it properly oxidize which is why you see tea staining coming out. Not all grades are equal - I think you need 316L for marine applications.

Rudder posts, like rigs, are under enough stress that you need to assume that metal fatigue is a real problem on older boats. Most boats replace standing rigging after 10-15 years. And other items like rudders, keel bolts etc. can be inspected and tested even if they're hard to get at or don't offer easy visual clues to potential failure.
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Old 17-12-2011, 21:55   #213
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Lifelines cannot be vinyl coated under offshore racing rules precisely because they will rust from the inside. I had one go on me whilst doing foredeck halfway to the Philippines - not nice.

A lot of stainless steel can rust in the absence of air. Oxidized stainless steel protects itself, but covering it doesn't let it properly oxidize which is why you see tea staining coming out. Not all grades are equal - I think you need 316L for marine applications.

Rudder posts, like rigs, are under enough stress that you need to assume that metal fatigue is a real problem on older boats. Most boats replace standing rigging after 10-15 years. And other items like rudders, keel bolts etc. can be inspected and tested even if they're hard to get at or don't offer easy visual clues to potential failure.
Yes, that's what I was told that they can rust from the inside. My lifelines are bare. I know there are different grades of stainless steel, and that's why I was wondering about the stainless steel used to make my old rudder.
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Old 18-12-2011, 01:07   #214
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

316 is one of the worsts SS qualities what comes to crevive corrosion (oxygen starvation) thou it's pretty much a major issue with all of them..
Crevice corrosion
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Old 18-12-2011, 01:21   #215
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Yes, that's what I was told that they can rust from the inside. My lifelines are bare. I know there are different grades of stainless steel, and that's why I was wondering about the stainless steel used to make my old rudder.
The essential dilemma is that the best stainless steel grades are also the weakest. Carbon content is what makes steel stronger, but higher carbon steels rust.

Your rudder probably failed from plain old metal fatigue causing hairline fractures. Rust then takes hold and expands, causing further damage. There are solutions which can be brushed on to reveal microscopic cracking. And x-rays are frequently used to evaluate critical welds.

At the end of the day, virtually every material has a finite number of flex cycles after which they start to fatigue. And ultimately they will fail. It isn't a design flaw, it's just the way materials age. A bit like the knees of a 50 year old mogul skier.........
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Old 18-12-2011, 06:34   #216
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Re: Do Hunters make good bluewater/liveaboard boats?

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Which model?

Kind of like asking if Chevy makes a racey car and one person talks about a Corvette and another about a Metro.
Did the OP ever answer this on the thread and I missed it? Whatever side you may be on doesn't matter unless you know the boat being "discussed".
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Old 18-12-2011, 08:22   #217
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Ohhhh I looked at a 33' Cherubini. It had problems, including dry rot in bad places and engine oil the consistency of peanut butter -- but OH MY that head! What a nice head!

It took all the maturity and self-control I could muster to walk away from that boat!
yeah that got me too.. and the galley and that flip up table.. the boat has some great and not so great points... while its a job to cut out and replace deck... the other aspects of the boat are pretty good. For a liveaboard its not to bad. My rejection had to do with storage of scuba tanks.. silly I know..but two avid divers aboard... we are looking at trawlers.. <--oh that hurt to type..
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Old 18-12-2011, 09:35   #218
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Re: Do Hunters make good bluewater/liveaboard boats?

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Whatever side you may be on doesn't matter unless you know the boat being "discussed".
I disagree

Like saying only those who have a Toyota Prius can actually know that the car is not capable of driving 500 miles on a gallon of gas. Sometimes adding 2 + 2 to get 4 is that simple......without the use of fingers. YMMV

I was going to do a thread with a poll (my Xmas pressie to the Mods ), but couldn't be ar#ed :-

"What boat would you prefer to be on - in a mid ocean F10 (with wife / kids onboard)......for a few days, or so?".

1) Hunter
2) Beneteau
3) HR / Najad etc
4) Some old school design with a full keel, and rudder attached in at least 2 places.........and weighing more than a bus load of sumo wrestlers - albeit a bit short of cocktail hour lounging areas for 10

The presumption being that all are in good order, of similar length and equipped as "you" would want for a trans ocean voyage - not simply with whatever the boat came with out of the factory gate.

I have excluded Catamarans because we all know that a) physics does not apply to them and b) they go so fast that they never see rough weather (The Higgs Boson of the boat world ).
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Old 18-12-2011, 09:45   #219
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

And the point of such a stacked poll question would be what beyound supporting the answer you already hope to get?
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Old 18-12-2011, 09:47   #220
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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And the point of such a stacked poll question would be what beyound supporting the answer you already hope to get?
Fair point.

Poll now amended:-

1) Beneteau
2) HR / Najad etc
3) Some old school design with a full keel, and rudder attached in at least 2 places.........and weighing more than a bus load of sumo wrestlers - albeit a bit short of cocktail hour lounging areas for 10
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Old 18-12-2011, 10:15   #221
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Fair point.

Poll now amended:-

1) Beneteau
2) HR / Najad etc
3) Some old school design with a full keel, and rudder attached in at least 2 places.........and weighing more than a bus load of sumo wrestlers - albeit a bit short of cocktail hour lounging areas for 10
When will people begin to understand how unpleasant it is to have other people slag your boat to amuse themselves?

To illustrate a point, here's an alternative poll I would pose:

Which boat would you rather spend a long Christmas holiday on with your family of four while anchored in the rain?

a. David Old Jersey's ancient Seadog 30' bilge-keeled motorsailor, which will actually sleep four people if they don't mind sharing a head in the chain locker;

b. Don Lucas' modern Hunter 410, a bulb-keeled sloop in which, unlike a Seadog 30', you can actually access the aft cabin without having to climb outside and cross the cockpit in the rain.
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Old 18-12-2011, 10:48   #222
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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When will people begin to understand how unpleasant it is to have other people slag your boat to amuse themselves?

To illustrate a point, here's an alternative poll I would pose:

Which boat would you rather spend a long Christmas holiday on with your family of four while anchored in the rain?

a. David Old Jersey's ancient Seadog 30' bilge-keeled motorsailor, which will actually sleep four people if they don't mind sharing a head in the chain locker;

b. Don Lucas' modern Hunter 410, a bulb-keeled sloop in which, unlike a Seadog 30', you can actually access the aft cabin without having to climb outside and cross the cockpit in the rain.
That's easy - over here = neither Somewhere warm for a Xmas family holiday I would go for the Hunter. or rent a condo

Doesn't bother me in the slightest what anyone else thinks of my boat - why should it? Is she perfect? of course not - but compromises known and accepted (mostly centred around being 30' and some design quirks from ye good olde days).....why would I pretend to others (and self?) that it's otherwise?? Bizarre

Crossing the cockpit in the rain? I lost 2 crew members doing exactly that They melted in spite of the "Safety" briefing to deploy the cockpit cover if it looks like rain..........

I will concede that sometimes another 10 feet would be nice - albeit can't say I would ever want more than the one khasi onboard, for the cleaning if nothing else.....if more than one person onboard simply put the fan or a radio on ..........and folk either can't hear you straining a log out or at least they can pretend they can't (sound travels through a boat structure as well as via the air). and remember to close the door .

FWIW my 30' boat and Don's 40 foot Hunter do share one important thing - both are unlikely to ever see me onboard during a mid ocean gale, by the simple expediant of not sailing there
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Old 18-12-2011, 11:27   #223
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

on christmas holiday i would prefer to be on board my much bashed formosa 41. hunters are great for interior comfort. i havent ever sailed a hunter so i cant bash it too hard, especially seeing i sail a heavy ketch with full keel. buddy boaters in gulf of mexico sailed them and did well, but too many things not pertaining to sailing kept breaking and they remained behind a lot--- no, i wasnt sailing my ketch-i was sailing friend's sloop at the time. hunters make great living spaces-- roomy and beamy boat.
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Old 18-12-2011, 12:00   #224
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When will people begin to understand how unpleasant it is to have other people slag your boat to amuse themselves?
As true as that might be... when discussing boats would only be allowed in a positive way, we can put CF to rest. When you become a member here and join the discussions about boats, anchors etc., you have to be able to take critical remarks about your boat/anchor. There is always somebody owning the boat that is being discussed.

The question then becomes in which context others "slag" your boat... seriously or just to amuse themselves. I for one would not be willing to make those determinations. There is always ground for making these statements, no matter how they are made. At least, that is how I read it.

I will slag any design incl. what I own. Because they all have their flaws. That is why we all keep making improvements to our boats.

What should not happen imho is people slagging boats without having a clue about those boats, or worse. Not all who read it see through that.

cheers,
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Old 18-12-2011, 12:10   #225
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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May I ask how you ran aground in Toronto? I sail out of NYC, and if there's some new underwater feature I don't know about, it might be handy to know.

I'm aware of the sand piling up at the end of the airport runway, and I know about the bar at QCYC (touched this once to the amusement of the beer drinkers, but as I was in my steel cutter, I just powered off without much drama).

The only other places I can think of are the anchor giving out in front of Hanlan's. One of our boats did not plan so well and anchored in 25 knots in front of there and had to get hauled off. Lost his rudder, I believe, and probably one pair of clean trousers.
It was outside of the entrance to the Aquatic Marine Park, completely my fault. Returing to the Outer Harbour Marina, I misread a red entrance marker to the Aquatic Park for a main channel marker. It didn't put me outside of the channel by much at all. It was in the fall of 2010.

To make matters more embarrassing, it was my first sail, (fractional owner), thus; first time having to use the radio, and first time getting towed as well. I look back at that day and shake my head when I think of how stupid I was. Aside from the grounding, it was blowing 20, too much wind for a novice.

BTW, when we were heading out, I heard a call of a grounding outside the entrance to the National. If you heard about, that would be the same day.
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