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Old 17-12-2011, 13:57   #181
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Originally Posted by elliebell View Post
What' the general consensus?
All depends on which one or when it was built. Cheribini Hunters were not bad boats.
IF you are looking at older Hunters, see if Good Old Boat has done a review of one.
Are you singlehanding? IF you are do NOT get a boat, any boat, you cannot handle by yourself with no other crew that you... or you cannot raise and lower the sails by yourself..
Cheribini Hunter 33 is a good liveaboard and sails well. Being 33 feet also keeps it under the wire for the entry fee into the Bahamas. Two can easily live on it.. I mean the 35foot mark where your fees go from $150 to $300.. sorry..

One poster wrote that you should get the boat you like and to heck with what "experts"say.. I have to disagree on that comment. A newbee might like macgregors, but that does not make it a blue water cruiser by any stretch of the imagination. Take the time to research whatever boat you get. Most boats have a fan club page. You can glean a lot of info from there. Depending on age, Good Old Boat is a goldmine of info.
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Old 17-12-2011, 14:15   #182
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
I would question the veracity of that failure rate. Rudders on Hunters are made by Foss Foam, which supplies rudders for a large number of manufacturers. It's illogical that these rudders would break more on Hunters than on the boats of other manufacturers.
That's exactly why I worded my statement the way I did because I heard the info second hand.

I don't agree with your logic though. While Foss Foam supplies rudders for a number of builders, they don't make all the decisions on layup schedule and the internal construction details. Hunter and other large scale production builders are all building to a price point. Like any other component, they don't want to spend more than they have to. Builders of higher end boats will often make critical assemblies like the rudder in-house.

I personally know of many rudder failures that have occurred on mass production boats a day or two out of Hawaii on the delivery back to the west coast. Every other year we have Pacific Cup from San Francisco to Hawaii. Every race I can recall, there have been one or more boats with rudder issues on the delivery home. In many cases they broke shortly after departure trying to sail upwind around the Pacific High. I am by no means singling out Hunter.

One of the things I appreciate about our boat is that in addition to having the rudder hung from a substantial skeg, the steering is a push-pull system that will still function if one side were to fail completely. The rudder assembly was designed and tested to be able to support the entire weight of the boat. The loss of a good friend's boat in Chile due to a steering failure in a narrow channel has made me admittedly a bit paranoid about the integrity of rudders and steering systems.
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Old 17-12-2011, 14:34   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

That is why sailing DDW is unacceptable in racing. I wonder if the person who disputed this will acknowledge his error?
Ha ha. i am the poster referred to. not an error as I was referring to racing or cruising without downwind sails like spinnakers.
S/v illusion must not have sailed or watched many college dinghy fleets, laser fleets, or non-spin fleets race on windward/leeward courses as I have. Trust me when I tell you that many racers will sail DDW when sailing non-spin.
Suffice to say that without spinnakers, polars disappear below 110-120 deg for most boats because jib/ genoa is blanketed by main. So without a spinnaker, the fastest VMG is often DDW because you can pole out the jib wing on wing and regain the sail area lost when sailing between 120-170 deg apparent wind.
You are correct that optimally racers will sail downwind angles according to polars if they use spinnakers but note that my original post referred to non-spinnaker racing classes, which is probably more relevant to cruisers. I live near Annapolis, and am happy to have anyone come out and race with me next summer if they want to see this in action. Just PM me- i used to be a head racing coach for several teams and miss doing this!
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Old 17-12-2011, 14:50   #184
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If you're not racing you can use a symmetric chute with two spinnakers poles. This makes a very relaxed and stable DDW rig. Use the main to limit roll and to blanket when dousing the chute.

This setup isn't allowed in races so it's very good for cruisers.

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Old 17-12-2011, 14:52   #185
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
Ha ha. i am the poster referred to. not an error as I was referring to racing or cruising without downwind sails like spinnakers.
...

So without a spinnaker, the fastest VMG is often DDW because you can pole out the jib wing on wing and regain the sail area lost when sailing between 120-170 deg apparent wind.

You are correct that optimally racers will sail downwind angles according to polars if they use spinnakers but note that my original post referred to non-spinnaker racing classes, which is probably more relevant to cruisers. ...
Without a proper downwind sail the difference in VMG will be bigger.

You can see that even in what regards geenakers they don't consider the sail useful after 165º (for spinnakers 175º). A big genoa works like a small geenaker and it is the more usefully sail downwind if you don't have proper downwind sails.

Regarding poling the genoa on one side and the main on the other you cannot go dead downwind but between 170/175º and there is many sea conditions that makes this impossible or inefficient (waves).

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Old 17-12-2011, 15:33   #186
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

No amount of info can change some people's perception.
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Old 17-12-2011, 16:20   #187
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

_I_ thought this was a thread about whether or not hunters make good liveaboards...not about racing sailboats... what a deviation from the topic... sheesh...
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Old 17-12-2011, 16:25   #188
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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No amount of info can change some people's perception.
Rather an obtuse comment would you not say... Perception can take many twists and turns does it not.. However if one is researching a particular brand of boat and its qualities.. One normally gathers info from as many sources as possible to make an informed decision. Just because one person says, "oh don't listen to anyone or read anything, do what you like...." are they not setting themselves up as an expert of some kind in doing what one likes? It is all about each person....however, if person A takes that sort of advice from person B.. and then the boat is junk because they were dumb enough to ignore the part about researching the boat......

When it comes to hunters.... older boats were built a bit differently... newer models are somewhat built less stout it seems.. that is my opinion and that is worth the cost of my time to write it which is nada.. YMMV.
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Old 17-12-2011, 16:33   #189
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Originally Posted by bella View Post
_I_ thought this was a thread about whether or not hunters make good liveaboards...not about racing sailboats... what a deviation from the topic... sheesh...
^^^^^^
What he said.

I was seriously interested in what OWNERS had to say earlier on in this thread, especially their experiences in tough weather. It put Hunter back on my radar screen, although I suspect there are a few caveats for those that were built post Cherubini and pre- 1990's it seems.

Others may feel the same way, at least those of us still looking for our first boat.
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Old 17-12-2011, 17:24   #190
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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^^^^^^

I was seriously interested in what OWNERS had to say earlier on in this thread, especially their experiences in tough weather. It put Hunter back on my radar screen, although I suspect there are a few caveats for those that were built post Cherubini and pre- 1990's it seems.

Others may feel the same way, at least those of us still looking for our first boat.

Thanks, but it seems many don't believe anything owners might say.
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Old 17-12-2011, 17:33   #191
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Firstly - in a sub-thread about "unexplained" rudder and keel losses at sea, you post about a perfectly explainable maintenance and operation related rudder failure that hs nothing to do with rudder design or materials.

30 year old gudgeons and pintles on the "sturdiest" of boats need maintenance.

I like many of your posts but you tend to have an external locus of control. The PO doesn't deserve an ass whipping. It is your boat and you are responsible for its safety and maintenance regardless of history. In two posts your stated the PO is responsible for your unmaintainedd rudder and the tow company is responsible for breaking it off when they towed it off a sandbar.

You got it on the sandbar, you should have not presumed a 30 year old hollow rudder shaft is in good shape. And yes getting access to stuff that should be inspected every "30" years is difficult.

And not putting words in your mouth but you stated something like, "it does make me wonder anout the quality of stainless that was used."

Wonder no more! That stainless was awesome!

I hope you have checked all the other 30 y/o stainless on your boat...

My boat doesn't have gudgeon and pintle. As I said, the only way to spot this particular rust problem would have been to shove a damp rag six feet down the rudder post to the one place where the rust was. It was visible on the inside of the tube after it broke, but not the outside.

Second, the thread's topic is whether Hunters make good bluewater/live aboard boats.

Who is the PO? I didn't give anyone an ass whipping, but you're trying to pull one on me. (You missed.)

What is the PO? And I never said anyone was responsible for my rudder except me. First of all, upon examination, the rudder was compromised. Second of all, it was up to me to refuse the tow if I didn't like how the towboat was doing it. As I said a long time ago on this topic, if I'd had *one more day's experience* I would have gotten out of the boat, waded in the direction he wanted to tow me, and we would have BOTH seen the depth of the water shrink.

NEVER have I said that anyone else should pay for the rudder.

Yes. I got it on the sandbar. I called for a tow BECAUSE I wasn't confident the rudder could take a battering, I was close to a channel and could have been heavily waked, and the tide was going out, making it even more vulnerable. No doubt you have forgotten some of those details, but for some reason (grin) they've stuck in my mind.

When I asked you to not put words in my mouth I said that because you said I was suggesting that there was something wrong with Foss Foam's products. I've been to their manufacturing site. I've met Mr. Foss. I was very impressed. But you suggested that I was maligning it.

This will be my last comment on this, because you have garbled much of what I have said in several posts. I didn't come here to argue with you or anyone else. If you enjoy "most of my posts," I suggest you let the rest slide. No one is perfect and I may say something in the future that you think is not worded satisfactorily also.
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Old 17-12-2011, 17:41   #192
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

Here's a thought, of, let's say 5000 sailboats around Toronto, 5% are Hunters. On any given day, I'd say Hunters make up about 15% of the boats I see out there, actually sailing.

It's ironic that everyone thinks they are Dock Condos. One of their greatest benefits is that they make it so easy to leave the dock and sail.
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Old 17-12-2011, 17:43   #193
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Here's a thought, of, let's say 5000 sailboats around Toronto, 5% are Hunters. On any given day, I'd say Hunters make up about 15% of the boats I see out there, actually sailing.

It's ironic that everyone thinks they are Dock Condos. One of their greatest benefits is that they make it so easy to leave the dock and sail.

You think Hunters are easier to sail than other boats?
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Old 17-12-2011, 17:51   #194
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Here's a thought, of, let's say 5000 sailboats around Toronto, 5% are Hunters. On any given day, I'd say Hunters make up about 15% of the boats I see out there, actually sailing.
No way, on Lake Ontario they're all CS's and C&C's, although I must admit all the newer boats are Beneteaus.
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Old 17-12-2011, 17:56   #195
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

Raku,

When you ran aground, was the rudder in the sand at that point? When I ran mine aground, I was heavily heeled at 7 knots, so the rudder got burried as well. No damage when they pulled us off though. And we were STUCK. First try was with 150hp outboard that passed by. Not a budge. Required a Marine Police with a twin engine, pic attached. Took many attempts by them as well, under full power.
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