Do boats have "souls"?

[mudnut]

Originally Posted by sail_the_stars

Hi everyone; Is it bad luck to rename a boat? Or is it just a myth? While I am looking for a serious answer humorous ones would be greatly appreciated as well.

PAUL

Here inlies the truth.

Ya put ya left foot in ,ya put ya left foot out,ya put ya left foot in again and shake it all about.Ya turn around and do the hoaky poaky,and that's what it's all about.

In the voice of THE Muddie Waters"If'n it wearn't for bad luck,I'd have no luck at all".

If crap hits the fan out at sea,10 to 1,It wasn't because ya changed the name of the boat without the right ceramony.Please,keep the folk lore alive but dont preach it like gospel.And don't ever try and lesson the chances of something going wrong at sea at this level of mentality.MHO.Mudnut.PS..But by all means,the ceramony would be enlightning,and a good reason for a gathering of friends and well wishers.Cheers,Mudnut.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by CaptainJeff

If you accept this kind of pagan rite, you must also accept the idea that you will fall off the edge of the flat earth if you sail too far from shore, and that the flat earth resides on the back of a giant turtle (or that Atlas himself holds it up), and that grains of wheat left in a bucket will spontaneously generate mice in a few days, because these ideas are all of the same cloth: take one, take them all.

I don't see the automatic link between accepting one and all...........

I would say it's tradition (based on centuries and longer of collective beliefs) coupled with a bit of harmless fun for those whose beliefs are not so easily threatened. At least their is no requirement to beleive that the grain of wheat has turned into a mouse, despite the evidence to the contrary.

The traditions and rituals that are called Pagan and are oft decried are usually only those which have not been adopted by the more populous religious cults. (yeah, that's an "L" ).

The figure of a woman on the bow of the ship to ward off evil spirits?........or a man on a stick? which is truly the more bizarre and nonsensical and which is the less valid?

Some religious convictions can be quite rational

ROTFLMAO

Gods come and go over time. They die when folk stop believing in them........

Me, I am a Santa Clausist , the fact that he may not really exist is for me neither here nor there........for me he exist's because I want him to and that is good enough for me. And I figure if he does exist it would be hard to say it would be a bad thing ..........but I am not sure how he stands on renaming boats though

[Shas]

Fortunately, Captain Jeff,
The way YOU see the world doesn't determine
how OTHERS live THEIR lives...

The beliefs of others should not be publicly
judged, laughed at and derided.
At least (I hope) not here.

My boat is sentient and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[CaptainJeff]

Oh, Shas, that kind of intolerance really should be avoided: the intolerance of ideas.

I'm not saying you can't behave as if Neptune exists; I'm just saying it's silly to do so. I had no idea anyone would actually come out to defend this ancient view. But, hey, I'm open to being persuaded, if you have any evidence to examine.

The marketplace of ideas is public: Anyone's beliefs can be publicly critiqued, if that critique is directed at the idea itself, and not at the person holding the belief. That's fair play. David just laughed heartly at my statement that some religious belief can be rational. He didn't attack me, just expressed disbelief in the idea. That's fine. He's allowed. If my idea is so fragile it needs to be protected from critique, it is weak, indeed. Protecting ideas from scrutiny because they are "personal" is a blanket ban on critical thinking, and not very cricket.

I think David is using a different definition of rational than I was using, so we have a bit of a miscommunication. Just opportunity for further dialogue.

Oh, and to head off the inevitable chastisement: this thread was already on a religious topic before I touched the keyboard, and most don't realize it. That's the very blindness I'm asking people to acknowledge.

Fair Winds to All, but I doubt this thread is going to be very enlightening: people tend to want to protect their own poorly-thought out world views, and are pretty touchy when their (world view) inconsistencies are pointed out. But if I can cause one man to stop and think, it's worth my effort.

You believe your boat is sentient? Really? Do you have any evidence to support this astounding claim?

[Shas]

Cap'n Jeff

I'm all in favor of ideas. Lots and lots of ideas.
I was mostly responding to your use of the word "derision",
which is a pretty disrespectful kind of word,
followed by a fairly lengthy post with a fair bit
of emotionally challenging judgments such as
"if you believe this you must accept that".

And to tell the truth, shipmate, I've seen several
friendly watering holes stop being fun places to hang out
when the forum discussions became polarized
(usually around the politics or religion).
So maybe I'm just a bit gun-shy, eh?

Some people DO believe in a "magical" world
and lots more would like to. I think that's okay.
Not a good place to look for "reason", though,
as religion is, by definition, non-rational.

Is our little boat sentient?
Yes, I'd have to say she is.
Can I prove it?
Nope- that's the realm of reason!

See ya on the docks,

Shas

[Lynx]

I have seen many "blessing of the fleets and boats". There is many different ways this is done based on ones faith. Mine is not to say who is right or wrong. I would like to point out that the Blessings have been happening for a very long time with many different religions. We may all be different and accept what others believe. It is your choice to believe what this has to do with a boat or what happens to it. I am not God and cannot pass judgement.

[cooper]

SShhh everybody my boats are listening......

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by CaptainJeff

TaoJones,

To have a co-incidence, you must have two "incidents" which occur closely in space and/or time, but which are not actually related in any conventional way. Pulling up to a stop light and discovering that the person in the car next to you is playing the same radio station you are is a coincidence. What is "coincidental" about referring to boats in the feminine gender? You don't understand the term.

I've been away for a few days and missed the "captain's" stern lecture, but I'll try to catch up. I would suggest, "captain," that only an insecure person with an agenda would foolishly and/or deliberately take only the first definition in the dictionary and apply it to "prove" his point, when the other definitions the dictionary gives are equally valid. Let's look at the word "coincidence."

* * *

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source co·in·ci·dence (kō-ĭn'sĭ-dəns, -děns') Pronunciation Key
n.

1. The state or fact of occupying the same relative position or area in space.
2. A sequence of events that although accidental seems to have been planned or arranged.

* * *

The "captain" relies on definition number 1 to "prove" his assertion; i.e., that in my post there are not two "incidents" that occur in the same space and/or time, and that I, therefore, do not understand the term "coincidence" (which the "captain" incorrectly hyphenates.)

However, definition number 2 "proves" what I was suggesting in my post (in response to the thread-opening post of sail_the_stars.) He had written, "While I am looking for a serious answer, humorous ones would be greatly appreciated as well." It was in that vein that I offered my observation.

Let's see, how did I do? Well, I brought up the tendency of many, if not most, sailors to give their boats feminine appellations, and to refer to them as if they are female by using the pronouns "she," "her," etc. I'll call that, for the "captain's" edification, Event # 1.

I then quoted the lines from William Congreve's The Mourning Bride to make the point that, as most any man (sailor or not) involved with a woman at some point in his life can attest, "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned," as it is usually misquoted. I'll call that Event #2.

Now, "captain," take a look again at definition number 2, above. Wouldn't you agree that Event # 1 (sailor's call their boats "she"), and Event # 2 (a perfectly rational female can occasionally over-react when she feels "scorned") are valid observations, and that boats occasionally react in unanticipated ways as well? Let's call that last observation Event # 3, and thus we have a sequence of events as outlined in definition number 2.

My tongue-in-cheek post was meant to be a pithy and, hopefully, humorous admonition to any person contemplating re-naming a boat that, like a woman scorned, "she" (the boat) may one day make you pay dearly by behaving in an irrational, unpredictable manner that will make your life hell for having had the temerity to change "her" name. (I've inserted the smiling emoticon so that the "captain" doesn't assume I actually believe there is a direct correlation.)

Whether it was, or wasn't humorous and/or pithy is beside the point. That a person would use it as a launching pad to insult and belittle the author of the observation, and derisively pass judgement on the author's "understanding" of a term, says very little about the original author, but a great deal about the attitude and mental health of the person who would act in such a boorish manner.

Take all the time you require in responding, "captain." I'm a busy man, but I look forward to the inevitable inflammatory "Screech from Long Beach."

TaoJones

[hellosailor]

Well, Jeff-
Don't confuse misperceived causality (a Western problem) with con-incidence and synchronicity.<G> It is possible for all three to have a place in this world, and still humor the Gods, as the Chinese traditionalists do when they burn money at a funeral--but hedge their bets in this world and the next by burning fake money, not the real thing.

"I just cannot understand usually intelligent people behaving as if the gods of the old pagan pantheon actually exist,"

So, you think it is rational and intelligent to believe in what, some other newer God? Or perhaps, you believe there is/are no God at all? Or your God must be the one and only God? That's unclear.


When you are a child you may be called "Son" or "sonny" or "Jeffy" by your parents. You may be called "Jeffrey" by others and "Mister whoever" by your grade school teacher. Then "Jefs" or "Honey" by your wife and "Sir" by your secretary. There may be six or seven names you are called by, even though you are only one person.

In the same way many cultures believe that there may be one God with ten million names, or ten million Gods with different names, and that whether there is "one" with many facets, or many, makes no difference. In practical terms, it might not.

So before you poo-poo the pagan Gods, remember that they were the first Gods. The God of Abraham was one of many Gods, and a territorial god at that, according to the surviving writings. But that God was replaced by, or rewritten to, a Christian God, which was again renovated for an Islamic God, which was replaced by a dozen Christian sects arguing about the plurality of God and a Trinity which comes back to one god with three facets, or perhaps three beings. Interestingly enough, a key tenet of the Koran is that any man who rewrites the Holy Book will burn in the afterlife forever for that sin. Yes, even in 700AD folks knew that "the word of God" had in fact been rewritten many times by many mortals.

If you think there's nothing besides Man, that's your option. But among religions? The pagan ways still work, and in many ways they are and were far more tolerant than the Inquisition and Intifada that the newer religions follow.

Rebel Heart, were you ever at a commissioning ceremony? Don't they still say "Bring the ship to life!" ? Go find someone with gray hair, and ask him (because there will be damn few gray-haired woman in the Navy, which used to prefer White Christian Men Only, Thank You) if he's never heard talk of an unlucky ship, or a lucky ship, from the men who served on her.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Can't we discuss something less controversial. Like Politics or Anchors or the BumFrazalls

Whilst I am sure Capn Jeff can and will reply in his defence / provide clarification (or come around and burn you Pagans at the stake ) in due course.........I suspect that things have gone a bit more off track than intended.

As my previous post indicated I do have some strange beliefs that probably (??!!) differ from those of the good captain and also my views regarding religions and especially certain religions are probably best kept to myself on this forum ..........but I do not have any fundamental problem (pun intended ) with others having views which I view as barmy or who view mine in the same light............in exchange for folk not being personal about my views, I like to think I extend the same courtesy to others.........but I do not have any problem with folk expressing their views on this subject, the quid pro quo is they get to hear about mine , and what I think about theirs ..........the question as to whether this subject is suitable for a forum about Boats is in my view one for a Higher Power (the Mods ).

In many respects I am very glad that people (here and elsewhere) do have a variety of views - I certainly would not like to live anywhere where everyone shared the same views........especially if those views were the same as mine

David

("A Freindly Nazi" who believes in Santa Claus and respects Pagan boat naming ceremonies, likes Easter Egg day and also Pancake day - not quite enough of us around to start a Cult. yet )

[GordMay]

Cruising as religion - maybe, tho' I suspect not appropriate.
Religion, in general, I'm certain NOT appropriate on this forum.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Cruising as religion - maybe, tho' I suspect not appropriate.
Religion, in general, I'm certain NOT appropriate on this forum.

Yo Gord,

"cruising as religion"! I think you're onto something.

Has anyone among us, who are so tied to the common ocean which touches us all, never felt a certain kinship with the creatures in the sea? Marveled why our bodies were almost 100% saltwater? Wondered at that which compells us to spend our lives on the sea?

best, andy

[Whimsical]

Cruising as religion.
I agree, can we register it then our boat units can be tax deductable

Mike

[CaptainJeff]

It woud be beyond tedious to try to take on all responses to my (apparently) upsetting post, so I'll save you all a slow death from boredom and resist the temptation. Besides, Gord is hinting that we're screeching along the guardrail boundaries for the board, and I quite agree.

As for religion, it's apparent that everyone has one, of some type or another. A bit of introspection is likely to bear this out. If the idea of sailing as religion is appealing to you, you may have found yours.

Honestly I didn't think I'd elicit such a powerful squall: I thought my point about the pagan pantheon would be self-evident, as readers sheepishly admitted that they do indeed sometimes behave in manners inconsistent with the way they profess the world to be. I'm still amazed that anyone would defend its existence, and still haven't heard any evidence that would make me want to take it seriously. Maybe someone could PM me?

And TaoJones, an impressive use of "snark quotes." You're showing your bile much too transparently. A simple "I think you may have overlooked something in my post" would have served just fine, and likely have gotten you an apology. A bit anti-climatic now, since you've already diced me up into a thousand tiny pieces.

I'm going somewhere friendlier, like the "Guns on Boats" thread.

Fair Winds (whatever you believe their origin to be),
Jeff

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by CaptainJeff

Fair Winds (whatever you believe their origin to be),
Jeff

Yo Jeff,

it's not Aeolus?

best, andy